Topic: Economic Totalitarianism - page 61. (Read 345738 times)

Oh I guess I didn't recognize the context fully. I have no disagreement with that (noting that I have little to no knowledge of the effectiveness of it either). You're talking about a serious life-threatening medical condition where a particular diet may have specific desired effects, and even if there are subtler or longer term negative effects, that can be well worth it. It's very different from general nutrition for a healthy lifestyle, which is what I though you meant.


The things you pointed out are "non-dairy milks, meat substitutes, breakfast cereals, and one type of nutritional yeast". The first three are manufactured products (and probably have B12 mostly because it is added as a manufactured supplement, meaning you are not getting the other associated nutrients which would normally be found with B12 in real food), and the third is exotic which is probably also manufactured in a sense. It's certainly not something you can just hunt, scavenge or forage and eat.

@TPTB_need_war

Generally doctors here in the Philippines looks for parts they can operate even if it is unnecessary... more operation and maintenance = more money for them.

aside from coconut fats, raw pili nuts are good source of fats, they even have buttery taste...these nuts are different from other nuts.
http://www.foodworks.co.nz/3-13-1717/news/Could-the-pili-nut-be-the-next-macadamia


@altcoinUK

how about dental health?..i like to see some good information on all vegan diet that makes the teeth healthy.

here are some good information about dental nutrition with animal diet..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weston_Price

weston price book ---> this is a very good read, he travels around the world, check the natives teeth and diet.

Nutrition and Physical Degeneration: A Comparison of Primitive and Modern Diets and Their Effects (1939)

and ramiel nagel book cure tooth decay

OK, I am not an English speaker, so I was really not thinking about the implication of the "apart" word, anyway thanks for pointing out that.

Still, I hope it came cross that I am talking about how vegan/plant based diet helped me and many many thousand other heart patients to reverse a chronic heart condition.

I don't think there is such thing as a categorically "sound diet". What the optimal diet is very much depends on personal health condition. For me, because of my heart condition, the most optimal is the "almost" vegan diet, which means 95% quality vegan/plant based food and once a week seafood, tuna, salmon, trout, etc.

EDIT: "you are eating a bunch of exotic and manufactured crap that probably causes other problems"

No, I don't eat those, and don't need to. You can get vitamin B12 - as I pointed it out - from different, perfectly safe sources. In my opinion, and there are many researches point that out as well, eating the animal products that generally are full of antibiotics and all kind of other shit, put you in more risks than get that vitamin B12 from vegan or supplementary sources.

I have nothing in mind terms of that and the model is lot simpler than you think and it is rather straightforward: whether you eat nuts or not you just poop regularly when you are on a vegan/plant based diet ... and therefore since end of the process the nuts intake is regularly and without any difficulties is manifested in shit, I assume there can't be any digesting issues. Again, even it is very much based on personal experiences, as far as I know millions of vegans experience with the very same phenomenon, i.e. as the result of so much carbohydrate intake there aren't any digestive issues whether you consume nuts or not.

You realize that the correct interpretation of this statement is that it is provable that you can't get everything from a plant diet, since you have identified one known nutrient you don't get. If you try to fix that, you are eating a bunch of exotic and manufactured crap that probably causes other problems, and even then you are still probably missing a bunch of nutritional value even though you cover up the worst of the obvious problems from B12 deficiency.

If the vegan diet were sound there wouldn't be "apart from" or "except" in statements about it even from supporters.

How did you conclude that? The anti-nutrients bind to certain things and disrupt certain enzymatic processes, etc.

Seems you have a very simplistic model of digestion in mind, something like fiber is good for digestion. But even it isn't that simple. We need soluble fiber, not just insoluble fiber.

On the note of digesting the nuts, when you are on a vegan/plant diet then that can't be an issue. Since you are taking so much carbohydrates in the form of vegetables, that solves any digestive issues ... most often to the extreme level, which is the most inconvenient part of the vegan/plant based diet.

Some nuts have much less anti-nutrients. I think hazelnuts if I am not mistaken.

I think I've read the proteins in nuts can't be fully digested due to the anti-nutrients. I love nuts too, but it seemed like eating them was a precursor to my flare-ups.

I have to agree that raw vegan is a very radical and in most of cases is a quite unnecessary step. For heart diseases - because the fat deposit in the blood vessels and the issues with endothelial cells - it is very much a must to reverse the condition and get healthy (and then it can be continued with a less strict diet), but yes, you are quite right that in your case there is no need such an extreme raw diet.

You are quite right about the tofu, we need to be careful with that, but I think it is a well documented fact.

Terms of nuts, I found no issues with that, I shouldn't eat it but I love it and I get a lots proteins and good fat from nuts, and I understand that is not good for everyone.

Agree on beans, that is very much the main part of any vegan/plant based diets.

Good luck with the diet, I hope you will find the right balance and most importantly I hope that will help you!

altcoinUK please re-read my first post on this page as I edited it.

Well I think you, Terry Wahls, and others are noticing that raw veggies are effective for M.S. and in your case heart disease. So I have to conclude there is evidence to support it as a superfood. Terry Wahls has found no statistical advantage for the ketogenesis version of her diet offerings. I can't find any claim of ketogenesis curing M.S., whereas I do find claims of it curing cancer.

So I think raw vegan is sane step to try, but I continue to caution that solely raw vegan is malnutrition, so keep it in balance. Our native ancestors ate meat (raw or barbecued), raw veggies, and cooked (and sometimes mashed and fermented) root starches.

Soy (tofu) is a digestive poison to the extreme! Traditionally fermented soy sauce or miso soup maybe an exception because fermentation often removes the anti-nutrients.

The nutrients in nuts and legumes can't be digested well due to the anti-nutrients put in these by mother nature to protect them from being eaten. Humans don't have the correct enzymes to digest these. We are not squirrels. You likely got big benefits for the raw vegan aspect of your diet, but if you are eating too many nuts and legumes, you run the risk of digestive issues. In moderation they are probably okay.

With careful preparation we can get many of the nutrients we need, e.g. Mung beans soaked, sprouted, and perhaps even fermented in whey, then cooked and the soap films skimmed off the top. They are delicious and high in protein and nearly complete from an amino acid perspective.

I am not sure from where that person in that link got that 30 bananas nonsense. Nobody in the right mind would eat 30 bananas - no need to and that is impractical.

There are very well balanced vegan diets that could include tofu, pasta, rice, even bread and of course the all kind of nice (many hundreds of) vegetables and nuts that provide with all nutritions (except vitamin B12) and adequate source of protein. Even with plant diet it is very straightforward to achieve a well balanced intake of nutritions and protein. Anyway, it is well documented, there are hundreds of researches and books to explain how to get proper nutrition from vegan and plant diets, and statements and hypotheses like "an omnivorous diet is the best diet for us to thrive" from that link doesn't change the facts about nutrition content of vegetables IMHO.

  

Stick to that and based on my personal experience I have no doubt that you will be fine :-)))

That's could be the case and since I am not sure what my body unconsciously is telling me I can't argue with that.

Aha! Perhaps our paleo ancestors (and the native tribes who today have 50% more species of gut microflora than we do), got it from eating raw vegetables!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9117178

So maybe I don't need the Kefir, maybe I just need to eat my wild species (not farmed) leafy greens raw (which I am doing as I write this).

You are lying to yourself. You are eating fish because you were not getting the correct nutrition and your body told you so. Avocados are very high in fat. Your body is telling you that vegetables alone are malnutrition.

Gorillas and humans don't have the same stomach enzymes, and we don't have time to nibble vegetables continuously which is what would be required to get adequate energy for a sports lifestyle.

You did yourself a big health favor by eating much more vegetables and lowering your intake of transfats, polysaturated fats, oxidized fats, GMO meats, and other Frankenstein foods we eat in the modern world. But don't take it too far into an unscientific religion as those who argue for ketogenesis and fasting do as miracle cures for everything.

http://paleozonenutrition.com/2011/03/26/why-i-dont-recommend-a-low-fat-raw-vegan-diet/

http://paleozonenutrition.com/2011/03/05/30-bananas-a-day-durianrider-an-analysis-of-his-paleo-vegan-diet/

Probably you have noticed that I have the highest respect for your intelligence, but that was not a quite correct thing to say :-))) please don't spread that misconception.

Apart from B12 you can get absolutely everything from plant diet. And you could get vitamin B12 from non-dairy milks, meat substitutes, breakfast cereals, and one type of nutritional yeast.

There are many body builders not even on vegetarian but vegan diet. They never eat any animal products and they are having no malnutrition issues.

I have been playing football in all my life, I go to gym regularly and I have no less energy as the result of vegan diet. (Lately I am slipping back to having seafood, tuna, salmon once a week, but before that, when I was on strict vegan diet, I had no malnutrition issues as well).

Compared to the body weight one of the strongest and most muscular mammals is the gorilla, which never (or very rarely) eat any animal products. Our and gorilla's body, metabolism and vital organs pretty much works similarly.

Once you heat an oil, it oxidizes and then it is surely no longer healthy.

I think coconut meat eaten raw has some beneficial qualities and we need good fats in our diet.

But I also think eating coconut as significant dietary intake is abnormal. I do not have a generic ancestry from the tropics. Even my gf cautioned me against eating too much of it. The filipinos eat it only occasionally.

I don't think he is ignoring that, but he is focusing on the fat content of olive oil, namely that the fat content is a huge risk that exceed the benefits of olive oil. There are very few westerners who is immune to getting fat from olive oil. Being obese is the primary entry point to diabetes and heart diseases. Going to gym doesn't help on that as the fat is deposited in your blood vessels and your endothelial cells are damaged and no exercise can help about that. (See my very first link regarding this topic that discusses how extra fit young soldiers already had having cardiovascular diseases)

The coconut is confusing the hell out of me and yes, I need to do more research on that. I am sure you are absolutely right about eating it raw, that should be fine. I am eating raw all kind of things such as avocado and nuts which I not supposed to do according to the strict cardiovascular plant diet - still my chronic heart disease symptoms are gone, which tells me the human body can take the good substances from all raw plant foods. Just like me, many other cardiovascular patients reported no issues with avocado and nuts regardless what Esselstyn says, and I am not saying don't follow Esselstyn's program, what I am trying to say is that some alteration to it is fine in the majority of cases. (I understand this cardiovascular stuff is not applicable to your cases and I am just talking about it as it could be useful for others as eventually, at some age, 40% of population will be having cardiovascular problems).

I think the problem with meats is the meat we are eating is not wild, it laden with antibiotics, is fed with grains (even GMO grains), and then we cook it which removes all the healthful enzymes.

I absolutely love raw tuna kinilaw.

As for diet high in wild grown vegetables, that sounds good. And eating them raw instead of cooked is probably even better.

But you've got to also get your carbohydrates from a soluble fiber too and in more dense form, e.g. sweet potatoes.

And you can't go meatless. Vegetarians have severe malnutrition issues.

In my case, I think a very high priority is on supplementing probiotics as well as normalizing my diet to the above goals.

As for raw milk, if taken as a probiotic in Kefir with all the good enzymes and without the A2 casein, perhaps this will be medicinal during this period where I am trying to restore my gut. I think the only way to find out is to try.

Well he is ignoring the medium-chain fatty acid mechanism which form ketones instead of other metabolic process.

This video argues against olive oil (and he goes into Food Totalitarianism also):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKBsNGiRgAA

He is arguing against coconut oil due to oxidation (which would be less of a case when I am eating it raw from the nut):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKrpMekZsSk

What I am thinking is that if you imagine how the human race adapted, it is very doubtful that we were pressing vegetable oils and eating them. Instead we were eating what had the highest value of nutrition for the least effort in preparation. Thus it is very doubtful that we were eating olive oils and coconut oils.

Whereas, we were very likely eating raw, wild meat. And we likely eating sweet potatoes for carbohydrates. Raw milk might have been something we ate infrequently, ditto nuts, berries. We were likely getting our probiotics and enzymes from the raw (perhaps slightly barbecued over a fire) meat.

I think eating too much oils is probably the wrong way to go. But for the oils you must eat, coconut is the best.