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Topic: SilkRoad domain Seized? (Read 46632 times)

hero member
Activity: 658
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November 25, 2013, 08:30:53 AM
Either way, even if it was a USG-honeypot, the rest of the world wouldn't really give a shit. They would still be buying drugs of each other outside of the "honeypot"-jurisdiction.

They should care. People that just dismiss this as a US problem aren't thinking very clearly. The US government found the SR server wherever it ended up being, and as far as we know had complete cooperation with whatever country it was in. If it is a honeypot they are not going to care about the buyers. The sole purpose would be to go after major sellers. If the FBI contacts the government of another country and says, hey we have information that says your citizen is a major drug dealer, I think the country would have no problem with the US moving in. We are cleaning up their problem for them.

Now is it really a honey pot? Probably not. Is it ok to go running back to SR right now? Probably. Just be wary.
full member
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November 25, 2013, 07:03:37 AM
Either way, even if it was a USG-honeypot, the rest of the world wouldn't really give a shit. They would still be buying drugs of each other outside of the "honeypot"-jurisdiction.
global moderator
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November 25, 2013, 05:47:50 AM

Can you say tinfoil hat?

Seriously though, would that even be legal to do? I know, your government doesn't really care about the law, but I'd still like to know.

(Where I live, creating a "honey pot" would absolutely not be legal.)

The US government is not going to set up a website to facilitate the sale of drugs. It wouldn't be legal and would be entrapment. And if all buyers and sellers used PGP they'd be safe. They already had access to the  first SR server any way, so it would've been better to just keep monitoring that for months if not years and picking people apart from the inside.
legendary
Activity: 1176
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November 25, 2013, 05:18:55 AM
Seriously though, would that even be legal to do? I know, your government doesn't really care about the law, but I'd still like to know.

(Where I live, creating a "honey pot" would absolutely not be legal.)

Yes, it would be legal, or at least, there are entirely legal ways for the U.S. government to do it under U.S. law.  The technical issue would be the difference between "entrapment," which is not permissible, and "enticement," which is.

Not to get too technical, the general principle is whether law enforcement basically goes out and gets people to commit crimes they otherwise would not have committed, or whether it simply provides an opportunity for them to do what they would otherwise do.

An example of the first would be John DeLorean of the DeLorean Motor Company, which made the car that ended up as the time machine in Back to the Future, which you probably remember if nothing else.  His company got into serious financial difficulty and basically, an FBI informant came up with a scheme to involve DeLorean in a cocaine trafficking scheme.  DeLorean had never done anything like this previously and almost certainly would not have without the feds basically exploiting the financial mess he was in to get him to participate in a crime.  Essentially, the defense was that there would have been no crime except for the actions of the feds themselves, and it would be unfair to convict DeLorean.  He won that argument defending himself.

Depending on how it shakes down, the guy accused of being DPR might have a defense on the "hit man" things based on entrapment.  We don't really know any more detail of how that happened other than what the feds put in the charging papers.

"Enticement" is different.  A simple example is the undercover vice cop dressing like a prostitute in an area of prostitution, who is approached by a man for sex, negotiates it and then arrests the john.  Or a controlled buy situation where an undercover informant purchases drugs from a suspect then arrests him.  While there are a lot of technicalities about this kind of thing, at bottom, the issue is really whether the defendant would have been likely to do this or something similar anyway, and that the enticement merely got them to get caught.

I think they could legally run a honeypot operation.  If the original SR vendors and customers came back and managed to get caught and get evidence on them based on such an operation, I'm pretty sure it would be admissible and that both the evidence could be used in court and they could actually be convicted of whatever new offenses they commit on the new site.

Now, my personal guess would be if the feds wanted to operate SR as a honeypot, they might have preferred not to shut it down in the first place, but if there was really an issue of DPR potentially going around having people killed, they might have chosen to cut the operation short, since it was obviously finished the moment they arrested and unsealed indictments.  The question really becomes whether they'd essentially run what is likely once again to become a large drug operation in order to do a sting.  This isn't some controlled buys.  It's reopening something they made a lot of news releases about shutting down.  If they do it and something goes really bad, careers would end.

So my guesses are:

A)  It'd be legal for them to run such a sting and its evidence would be admissible; but
B)  It'd be a really bad idea.  And could easily go out of control.

None of this is intended as legal advice and nobody should rely on it for that purpose.  It is largely guesswork based on incomplete information.
full member
Activity: 153
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November 25, 2013, 04:44:30 AM

Can you say tinfoil hat?

Seriously though, would that even be legal to do? I know, your government doesn't really care about the law, but I'd still like to know.

(Where I live, creating a "honey pot" would absolutely not be legal.)
hero member
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November 25, 2013, 01:03:30 AM
newbie
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November 25, 2013, 12:33:06 AM
full member
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newbie
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November 18, 2013, 01:01:35 PM
Has anyone used Brain Wallet that is mentioned in the article?
full member
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November 18, 2013, 09:23:44 AM
SR is back.
newbie
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November 17, 2013, 09:00:16 PM
All the modern examples of government-less areas of the world I can think of are countries where the state collapsed after a revolution or war, usually either quickly replaced by a (often worse) government, or constantly warring factions.

Dr. Benjamin Powell looked a dozen or so standard of living measures they could get reliably reported from Somalia over the course of 15-20 years. What we find is that these living measures decline dramatically from 1985-1990 (its last years of having a state). Since losing it's statelessness these living measures have improved dramatically. They rank in the top half of African countries. And they're near the top in access to telecommunications. They're the third biggest improver in life expectancy on the African continent since 1990.

They have improved in absolute terms and they've improved relative to the average on the continent.

We're not comparing the United States today to Somalia now. Somalia is definitely a poor impoverished country, like much of the African continent. What we need is relevant institutional comparisons. How well does any given country/culture do compared to it's less state or stateless alternatives. It's not fair to compare a first world country to a third world country regardless of the institutions we're comparing.

How does Somalia do in its statelessness compared to when it had a State and to the other 42-some sub Sahara countries? That's the relevant comparison.


http://benjaminwpowell.com/scholarly-publications/journal-articles/somalia-after-state-collapse.pdf

But absence of decision making is not really the same thing as absence of the rule of law, which is what DPR wanted.

This is a strawman. Market anarchy is not absence of law. Even the Somalis have law (Xeer), they just don't have a dominant state.

That's an empirical study, it even says so in the abstract. That's the kind of economics I find convincing - study the data.

1) There are many empricist economists and econometricans who are market anarchists.

2) "The statistical approach, unlike deductive inference, leaves the conditions under which established economic relations hold good fundamentally undetermined; and similarly, the objects to which they relate cannot be determined as unequivocally as by theory. Empirically established relations between various economic phenomena continue to present a problem to theory until the necessity for their interconnections can be demonstrated independently of any statistical evidence. The concepts on which such an explanation is based will be quite different from those by which statistical interconnections are demonstrated; they can be reached independently. Moreover, the corroboration of statistical evidence provides, in itself, no proof of correctness. A priori we cannot expect from statistics anything more than the stimulus provided by the indication of new problems. In thus emphasizing the fact that trade cycle theory, while it may serve as a basis for statistical research, can never itself be established by the latter, it is by no means desired to deprecate the value of the empirical method. On the contrary, there can be no doubt that trade cycle theory can only gain full practical importance through exact measurement of the actual course of the phenomena it describes. But before we can examine the question of the true importance of statistics to theory, it must be clearly recognized that the use of statistics can never consist in a deepening of our theoretical insight.

II.
Even as a means of verification, the statistical examination of the cycles has only a very limited value for trade cycle theory. For the latter—as for any other economic theory—there are only two criteria of correctness. First, it must be deduced with unexceptionable logic from the fundamental notions of the theoretical
system; and second, it must explain by a purely deductive method those phenomena with all their peculiarities that we observe in the actual cycles. Such a theory could only be “false” either through an inadequacy in its logic or because the phenomena it explains do not correspond with the observed facts. If, however,
the theory is logically sound, and if it leads to an explanation of the given phenomena as a necessary consequence of these general conditions of economic
activity, then the best that statistical investigation can do is to show that there still remains an unexplained residue of processes. It could never prove that the
determining relationships are of a different character from those maintained by the theory." - Friedrich A. Hayek, Prices and Production.


It's difficult to do the same for anarcho-capitalist ideas because there aren't any good examples of it working successfully in modern times.

1) Embedded in the question is the assumption that libertarian countries don’t exist because they are fantastic creatures, like unicorns. Of course, just because something doesn’t exist yet does not mean it can’t exist.

2) An indefinite number of potential reasons may speak against market anarchy. No matter how many you succeed in falsifying, however, some may still be left, and you can never prove that none are left. In other words, you've shifted the burden of proof and haven't shown we need a state (a term not synonymous with law) in the first place.

Theories that exist in the world of abstract philosophy is how you end up with the deflationary spiral idea - stuff that simply doesn't match observed reality.

"We cannot in practice consider a fact without relating it to other facts, and the relation is a theory. Facts by themselves are dumb; before they will tell us anything we have to arrange them, and the arrangement is a theory. Theory is simply the unavoidable arrangement and interpretation of facts, which gives us generalizations on which we can argue and act, in the place of a mass of disjoined particulars."
(Henry Clay. Economics for the General Reader. New York: Macmillan. 1925. pp.10-11.)

"The 'practical man' habitually acts on theories that he does not consciously realize; and in most cases this means that his theories are fallacious. Using a theory consciously, on the other hand, always results in some new attempt to clear up the interrelations that it assumes, and to bring it into harmony with which theoretical assumptions; that is, it results in the pursuit of theory of its own sake." - Friedrich A. Hayek, Prices and Production.


Rothbard had a lot of very strange ideas about the nature of cartels and monopolies

Really?


hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
October 08, 2013, 04:18:07 PM
Excellent Article Thanks

There's a rough timeline of the various mistakes made by DPR here.  It's been put together using only the information in the court documents which have been released so far.  When you see it all in one place put together in a coherent fashion, it becomes apparent why DPR getting caught was only a matter of time.  

Not all of the evidence the feds have is referenced in the unsealed court documents (this is acknowledged in the criminal complaint), but anyone who's even contemplating setting up a similar enterprise to SR should keep in mind just how many simple errors led to DPR's downfall.

http://shadowlife.cc/2013/10/tracking-the-silk-road-lessons-for-darknet-services/

http://shadowlife.cc/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/SR-Timeline.html

DPR aside, the human element is going to be the biggest challenge in operating any SR-like market place - because stuff like this will inevitably happen.

Quote
The denial and shitty feelings kick in knowing some people ive grown great relationships with have lost alot of money in my store within escrow. Such great relationships that a few customers trusted me to keep shipping info and i would just ship every friday knowing they will set up the payment a few days later when they get online.

Three mistakes right there. Vendor hold's customer's shipping info, buyer uses same delivery address on an ongoing basis, order is shipped (and therefore received) in a predictable pattern.

Over the long term, people get too comfortable and start sacrificing security for convenience.  The minute you start establishing personal relationships with others in enterprises where secrecy is vital, you start making yourself vulnerable.
hero member
Activity: 658
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October 08, 2013, 04:06:49 PM
DPR is supposed to appear in court for his bail hearing tomorrow. The prosecution is going to label him a flight risk but I think his defense has a shot at getting him bail. It will probably be a steep bail (1 mil+ maybe?) but if he is able to post it all manner of things involving his bitcoin stash could happen starting tomorrow.

Large scale drug dealer, suspected of involvement in two murders for hire, and demonstrated ability to arrange for false IDs.
Bail seems...unlikely.

At the moment, he either hasn't yet been indicted in NY or there's an indictment which hasn't yet been unsealed.  Only part of the Maryland proceedings (which first started in May) have been unsealed so far.  If he even looks likes getting bail, the feds almost certainly have more charges in reserve. 

Summary of the legal issues here.

http://www.popehat.com/2013/10/02/the-silk-road-to-federal-prosecution-the-charges-against-ross-ulbricht/

Excellent Article Thanks
legendary
Activity: 905
Merit: 1000
October 08, 2013, 03:48:46 PM

“The FBI has not been able to get to Ulbricht’s personal Bitcoin yet,” wrote Hill. An FBI spokesperson said to Hill that the “$80m worth” that Ulbricht had “was held separately and is encrypted”.

And that is good news for the Bitcoin system.
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
October 08, 2013, 03:46:04 PM
DPR is supposed to appear in court for his bail hearing tomorrow. The prosecution is going to label him a flight risk but I think his defense has a shot at getting him bail. It will probably be a steep bail (1 mil+ maybe?) but if he is able to post it all manner of things involving his bitcoin stash could happen starting tomorrow.

Large scale drug dealer, suspected of involvement in two murders for hire, and demonstrated ability to arrange for false IDs.
Bail seems...unlikely.

At the moment, he either hasn't yet been indicted in NY or there's an indictment which hasn't yet been unsealed.  Only part of the Maryland proceedings (which first started in May) have been unsealed so far.  If he even looks likes getting bail, the feds almost certainly have more charges in reserve. 

Summary of the legal issues here.

http://www.popehat.com/2013/10/02/the-silk-road-to-federal-prosecution-the-charges-against-ross-ulbricht/
sr. member
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hero member
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Wherever I may roam
October 08, 2013, 03:07:02 PM
Flight risk is the single most important factor in granting bail or not.

I agree with you, and I would also add "destroy evidence"... remember there is a wallet (or several) with all the money (or what have remained) he gained from his activity. Do you think he will be allowed to go out on bail and further moving and hiding it?
legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1005
October 08, 2013, 09:07:58 AM
And from another poster:
Quote
strong ties to the community

Exactly what strong ties?
He conducted is business anonymously, with people from around the world, and was living in a shared flat.
Strong ties to drug dealers isn't going to help with bail Smiley

That's up to the defense lawyer to magic up.  It's a relevant consideration as to flight risk.  The "community" is also which one, exactly?  The defense should argue it's to whichever community he's being released to, rather than necessarily where he lived.  After all, he lived in California, is charged in New York, and would be released on bail to where?  Into the home of a close family member who is the one posting the bail or signing the bail bond would probably be the best option (if he actually wants to get bailed out).  He should also do his best to appear willing and eager to appear at trial and confident of the likelihood of acquittal on at least the most serious charges, so as to appear to be less of a flight risk.

I'd be surprised if any of that happened without someone other than a federal public defender, though.  In that situation, I'd expect either onerous bail or no bail at all.  The fact most of his funds are subject to forfeiture would mean he's likely to have to appeal to third parties for a defense.  He may be effectively destitute without those funds.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
October 08, 2013, 08:59:15 AM
To me a flight risk is irrelevant: it's not his problem. Incarcerating him for being a flight risk is punishing him for a crime he hasn't committed yet (and might not commit at all).

Flight risk is the single most important factor in granting bail or not.
The purpose of setting a high bail figure is to ensure that the accused returns for trial, rather than fleeing.
In this case he:
a) Is accused of serious crimes (so has more incentive to flee)
b) Has proven access to forged documentation (showing intent to evade detection, and increased likelihood of successfully fleeing
c) Is assumed to have access to large amounts of untraceable money (increased likelihood of successfully fleeing, and reduced incentive not to give up bail money)
d) Has significant underworld connections (increased likelihood of successfully fleeing)

Bail would be extremely surprising in this case.

And from another poster:
Quote
strong ties to the community

Exactly what strong ties?
He conducted is business anonymously, with people from around the world, and was living in a shared flat.
Strong ties to drug dealers isn't going to help with bail Smiley
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
October 08, 2013, 08:02:11 AM
Make sure you smile relaxed and confidently Smiley

Never sweat either. Always a dead giveaway.
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