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Topic: SilkRoad domain Seized? - page 10. (Read 46632 times)

legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1018
October 02, 2013, 04:01:50 PM
Murder for hire, or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_flag , that is a question.

I don't know what they would need a false flag, to create this debate among the über-small BTCnerds community? 99% of the population thinks narcotics is a serious felony enough to rot in jail, so what's the point in making up the hitman story? Plus, in the affidavit its implied that the hit probably never happened, and you can see clearly how the probable thing is that DPR was scammed because he was dumb. What is the point in making that up, if they already have overwhelming proof to throw DPR in jail forever?
full member
Activity: 140
Merit: 100
October 02, 2013, 04:01:37 PM
I had the same initial reaction as almost everyone else here to the hitman claims - and personally now I've thought about it, I would never get a hitman for reasons explained later.

But instead of just condemning him for it, you should at least try to see where he was coming from. If many thousands of silk road users were revealed, I guarantee there would have been at least a few deaths and many lives ruined.

For a start, any users in Singapore or Malaysia or many other East Asian countries could have been looking at the death penalty.

Then there are those with addictions to benzodiazapenes and barbituates, and possibly some other drugs, where sudden forced cold turkey will kill them. You will be reading about some of them shortly.

Then there are the many addicts to other substances who are going to accidentally OD in the near future. To be fair this is going to be less likely than normal simply because silk road (by and large) was just so damn good - more likely is the addicts will not get enough and be, er, warm turkey (is that right?)

Then of course the many many many more addicts who will just have to go cold turkey. If you were buying drugs to sustain an addiction from silk road you were almost certainly a functioning addict, something that the anti drug groups try to pretend doesn't exist. To be a functioning addict you need a reliable supply. Lose that and many of these addicts are going to lose jobs and family. There will be suicides, not to mention suicides from withdrawal, including PWS.

All those are predictable consequences of stopping major drug suppliers, and are one reason the war on drugs is simply evil. But releasing the names of users would be far far worse - especially in places like america where they drug test employees. Anyone on that list would get that at a very minimum. More likely, just fired. And that's ignoring the police investigations, where tbh at least in America they will pay lip service to respecting your rights. Albania, not so much.

Combine all that and unless you always believe killing is wrong, no matter what, there is a perfectly reasonable argument for cold blooded murder.

Even so, I wouldn't order a hitman myself and for three major reasons - the users brought this on themselves by taking the risk of signing up for silk road. This, I think, would severely shift the balance of responsiblity away from me such that I wasn't forced to make a deal with the devil. Secondly, I would have no idea where to hire a hitman and am skeptical "real" ones even exist. Thirdly, the above analysis assumes the two options are murder or nothing. In reality there were plenty of other options that could be taken and he should have tried one of them.

P.S. @ the person who thinks it's appalling to think murder is an acceptable form of justice. Of course it's appalling. But you know who's supposed to enforce justice? The government. Do you think that I can take some guy to small claims court if he sells me oregano for $200/oz? It is precisely this, being forced to take justice into your own hands, which causes the worst practical side effects of the war on drugs.
Hey the use of drugs is debatable.
I mean people will always find a way to get them.
Might as well get them from a source that is not violent
Otherwise it defeats the purpose.
No murder is not justified.
It would have cost him cheaper in the end to make a deal with the guy and write it off as a cost.
Instead of murdering someone.  
hero member
Activity: 630
Merit: 500
October 02, 2013, 03:59:58 PM
The fact that some idiot thinks I'm "authoritarian" for merely being unsurprised at Ulbricht's true nature

That was not exactly what you said. Let's recapitulate it, shall we?

By the way - I'm amazed at how many people are surprised that a drug dealer with extreme anarcho-capitalist tendencies turned out to be not a swell guy! Imagine that!

You simply concluded that somebody with "extreme anarcho-capitalists tendencies" (what's "extreme ancap" by the way? You're either ancap or you're not, it's pretty binary, no "intensity levels" are possible) is automatically not a "swell guy"... in the particular case, a potential murderer.

Well, I am an anarcho-capistalist myself, as many people around here. You just compared us with a potential murderer. Calling you an "authoritarian asshole" was quite polite on my part, if you want to know.
legendary
Activity: 1237
Merit: 1010
October 02, 2013, 03:58:02 PM
The question is, how Atlantis already knew it a couple of days ago... FBI honeypot theory confirmed?
legendary
Activity: 1358
Merit: 1002
October 02, 2013, 03:55:10 PM
Is it possible to forge forum messages? What mechanism prevents an admin from doing so on this forum, or the silk road forum?

The forums software itself documents post edits, either by user or mod/admin.

You can see the post in question https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/it-pro-needed-for-venture-backed-bitcoin-startup-47811 is untouched, otherwise the date line would be underlined as in this post which i have edited after posting for demonstration of the function.

The only way to do an edit that is not noticed by the forum software would be by directly modifying the post on the database level.


EDIT: Ok, the function showing that a post was edited doesn't seem to be working as it should. You may now start going paranoid.


Edits are only registered if they are done a few minutes after the time of the post/reply. If SMF works like phpBB those "few minutes" are configured by the administrator.
newbie
Activity: 53
Merit: 0
October 02, 2013, 03:55:05 PM
I had the same initial reaction as almost everyone else here to the hitman claims - and personally now I've thought about it, I would never get a hitman for reasons explained later.

But instead of just condemning him for it, you should at least try to see where he was coming from. If many thousands of silk road users were revealed, I guarantee there would have been at least a few deaths and many lives ruined.

For a start, any users in Singapore or Malaysia or many other East Asian countries could have been looking at the death penalty.

Then there are those with addictions to benzodiazapenes and barbituates, and possibly some other drugs, where sudden forced cold turkey will kill them. You will be reading about some of them shortly.

Then there are the many addicts to other substances who are going to accidentally OD in the near future. To be fair this is going to be less likely than normal simply because silk road (by and large) was just so damn good - more likely is the addicts will not get enough and be, er, warm turkey (is that right?)

Then of course the many many many more addicts who will just have to go cold turkey. If you were buying drugs to sustain an addiction from silk road you were almost certainly a functioning addict, something that the anti drug groups try to pretend doesn't exist. To be a functioning addict you need a reliable supply. Lose that and many of these addicts are going to lose jobs and family. There will be suicides, not to mention suicides from withdrawal, including PWS.

All those are predictable consequences of stopping major drug suppliers, and are one reason the war on drugs is simply evil. But releasing the names of users would be far far worse - especially in places like america where they drug test employees. Anyone on that list would get that at a very minimum. More likely, just fired. And that's ignoring the police investigations, where tbh at least in America they will pay lip service to respecting your rights. Albania, not so much.

Combine all that and unless you always believe killing is wrong, no matter what, there is a perfectly reasonable argument for cold blooded murder.

Even so, I wouldn't order a hitman myself and for three major reasons - the users brought this on themselves by taking the risk of signing up for silk road. This, I think, would severely shift the balance of responsiblity away from me such that I wasn't forced to make a deal with the devil. Secondly, I would have no idea where to hire a hitman and am skeptical "real" ones even exist. Thirdly, the above analysis assumes the two options are murder or nothing. In reality there were plenty of other options that could be taken and he should have tried one of them.

P.S. @ the person who thinks it's appalling to think murder is an acceptable form of justice. Of course it's appalling. But you know who's supposed to enforce justice? The government. Do you think that I can take some guy to small claims court if he sells me oregano for $200/oz? It is precisely this, being forced to take justice into your own hands, which causes the worst practical side effects of the war on drugs.
legendary
Activity: 3038
Merit: 1032
RIP Mommy
October 02, 2013, 03:54:53 PM
Murder for hire, or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_flag , that is a question.
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1018
October 02, 2013, 03:54:51 PM
This "ethics" discussion aside, is clear that DPR was just scammed as a dumbass, let's sum up:

a) A certain FriendlyChemist blackmails DPR. He justifies the blackmail by saying he needs money to pay his drug suppliers
b) DPR asks FriendlyChemist to be put in contact with the people FC owes money to
c) A certain "redandwhite" contacts DPR on behalf of FriendlyChemist, telling DPR he represent the people that has a credit with FC
d) DPR asks "redandwhite" to just execute FC, as he is a "liability"
e) "redanwhite" complies in less than 24 hours for +1,700BTC

a+b+c+d+e: DPR is DUMB AS FUCK and was clearly owned, I guess the prosecutors know it well as the chapter is labelled as "DPR's willingness to use violence", and they clearly state at the end that nobody seems to have been killed.

The story for those that cannot download the affidavit:




legendary
Activity: 2632
Merit: 1023
October 02, 2013, 03:54:44 PM
FBI agent
low orders on BTC
release news
picked them up cheap,
Huh?
Profit
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 500
WTF???
October 02, 2013, 03:54:40 PM
I really dont buy the whole murder for hire plot. Why would he of all people not speak with an encrypted message about that matter? The whole thing is sketchy, but I don't know.

How do you openly discuss a murder for hire without PGP?

DPR: What will it take to get rid of him?
Red: 500k
DPR: Okay sent. Pics to confirm?
Red: Pics sent.
DPR: Ty!

Really?Huh? #1 the whole transaction which is supposedly word for word is too bland for a half a million dollar deal. #2 how do they have a recording of these messages?


Also obviously no one was murdered on or around that date in BC.

Wouldn't a good murder be one where a death seemed natural?
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 501
October 02, 2013, 03:53:40 PM
One of the very worst things about Bitcoin is the lunatic fringe it has attracted, no thanks to SR. I hope now it's gone people like you will leave our community and never come back

+1 As more and more legit people adopt bitcoins, these people will be pushed out the community.

There will always be a black market in Bitcoin as long as it exists. Just like there are black markets in other currencies, including the USD and Euro.
hero member
Activity: 503
Merit: 500
October 02, 2013, 03:52:35 PM
I like the quote on page 13 of the criminal complaint (http://www1.icsi.berkeley.edu/~nweaver/UlbrichtCriminalComplaint.pdf).
"Bitcoins are not illegal in and of themselves and have known legitimate uses."

lol


The only legitimate use of bitcoin is to buy overpriced junk at online bodega shops.

I've been using them to buy Amazon gift cards @ 20% off Smiley.
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 504
October 02, 2013, 03:52:07 PM
The more I read about DPR the more I wonder how SR operated for so long. The guy was pretty much giving himself up:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2013/10/02/silk_road_s_dread_pirate_ross_ulbricht_asked_stack_overflow_question_under.html


DOH!
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
October 02, 2013, 03:51:22 PM
The fact that some idiot thinks I'm "authoritarian" for merely being unsurprised at Ulbricht's true nature just shows how deluded some people really were. You didn't have to be a genius to see that he might be dangerous.
You're an "authoritarian asshole" because you turned an unproven allegation into an indiscriminate political smear against an entire philosophical discipline, including some of the top thinkers in the world today and some of the highest profile and staunchest Bitcoin supporters.

You didn't condemn contracted murder, you used contracted murder as an excuse to condemned people who disagree with you politically.

By the way - I'm amazed at how many people are surprised that a drug dealer with extreme anarcho-capitalist tendencies turned out to be not a swell guy! Imagine that!
sr. member
Activity: 280
Merit: 250
October 02, 2013, 03:51:14 PM
I really dont buy the whole murder for hire plot. Why would he of all people not speak with an encrypted message about that matter? The whole thing is sketchy, but I don't know.

How do you openly discuss a murder for hire without PGP?

DPR: What will it take to get rid of him?
Red: 500k
DPR: Okay sent. Pics to confirm?
Red: Pics sent.
DPR: Ty!

Really?Huh? #1 the whole transaction which is supposedly word for word is too bland for a half a million dollar deal. #2 how do they have a recording of these messages?


Also obviously no one was murdered on or around that date in BC.
sr. member
Activity: 1610
Merit: 372
October 02, 2013, 03:51:11 PM
Quote
The "supplier", who supposedly performed the killing, was probably the blackmailer himself.
umm, no. red&white too well known.
They found out victim was trying to raise funds v. his delinquent loan by blackmailing DPR.
They merely told DPR they could make the problem go away.
And they did. Kinda sorta.

DoJ hasta prove DPR forked over 150k$ for a hit instead of the 500k$ for the blackmail.
The blackmail thing is important, cuz motive.
DoJ doesn't want DPR's ass... they want red&white
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 501
October 02, 2013, 03:50:29 PM
The point I made to Niels (the police guy) was that DPR had way too much confidence in the technologies he was using to keep him safe.

He wasn't caught because of a vulnerability in Tor or any other software but because he gave away way too much information on social networking sites and message boards (including this forum). If he had been really cautious and never used any of them he might have not been caught for a long time.
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 500
WTF???
October 02, 2013, 03:48:58 PM
It's appalling to post that you think murder is an acceptable form of justice!. One of the very worst things about Bitcoin is the lunatic fringe it has attracted, no thanks to SR. I hope now it's gone people like you will leave our community and never come back.

The fact that some idiot thinks I'm "authoritarian" for merely being unsurprised at Ulbricht's true nature just shows how deluded some people really were. You didn't have to be a genius to see that he might be dangerous.

Yes, it might turn out that the entire set of conversations were a total fiction pulled out of some law enforcers arse. In that case I will take back these words. But somehow I doubt it. Parallel construction is not the same thing as simply inventing non-existent documents out of thin air.

+1


I hope that this SR never comes back online, and I hope to every similar site to get down right away, we do not need these experiences around this community Bitcoin was a Nobel Idea, now people who supported the SR GTFO there is no such thing here anymore.....

I am so shocked.. I cant describe... selling drugs then killing people is making justice Huh!!!!... where is your humanity ?







Actually, kind of sounds like some sort of Breaking Bad plot rip off.
hero member
Activity: 952
Merit: 1009
October 02, 2013, 03:47:08 PM
Is it possible to forge forum messages? What mechanism prevents an admin from doing so on this forum, or the silk road forum?

The forums software itself documents post edits, either by user or mod/admin.

You can see the post in question https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/it-pro-needed-for-venture-backed-bitcoin-startup-47811 is untouched, otherwise the date line would be underlined as in this post which i have edited after posting for demonstration of the function.

The only way to do an edit that is not noticed by the forum software would be by directly modifying the post on the database level.

EDIT: Ok, the function showing that a post was edited doesn't seem to be working as it should. You may now start going paranoid.

EDIT2: Now it works after the 5 minute grace period.
hero member
Activity: 630
Merit: 500
October 02, 2013, 03:46:59 PM
I think it's too early to speculate but a lot more was at stake. If the blackmailer had released compromising information about SR users this could result in a lot more broken families.
It seems to me that as a libertarian, DPR was acting within the non-agression principle.

No way. Seriously, that should be a no brainer. Blackmailing isn't an aggression, so no use of force against a blackmailer is acceptable. Just study ethics before saying such things. Here, start with Walter Block: https://mises.org/daily/4576

If after the revelation of such secrets, bad things happen, that's not the direct action of the blackmailer, but of those who took the bad actions (the government, in this case). The blackmailer isn't violating anybody's rights. You have no "right to keep secrets". Having a "right to keep secrets" implies in having the "right to censor", by the way.
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