Test Cricket Prediction and Discussion Thread [self - mod] - page 1009.

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Quote from: Vishnu.Reang on June 08, 2020, 12:16:11 PM

^^^ It is surprising that you think the bowlers are not capable of taking wickets without the usage of saliva. Only a minority of the bowlers use saliva or any other substance to get swing. There are a lot of good bowlers who can swing the ball naturally, just using the ground conditions. Usage of saliva puts these bowlers at a severe disadvantage.

There are different factors that aide the swing, why do you think it is impossible to swing the ball in subcontinent conditions until the ball gets old, when you take a global approach a minority is playing cricket but anyone who plays cricket with a leather ball they use saliva to shine to ball.

Hope you are aware that you are not able to use any other objects to clean the ball other than saliva and it is not a new phenomena and if you ban the use the bowlers will be at an disadvantage.

Quote from: JSRAW on June 08, 2020, 01:26:26 PM

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PS : Never put "shining the ball" and "tempering the ball" at the same bracket as both are different things, Ball tempering happens when players disturbs rough part of the ball (Warner-Smith saga) or intentionally remove the seam(rare)

It is a good demonstration on how swing works, i do not understand why they have no idea about swing and what is the importance of shining one part of the ball.

Quote from: Vishnu.Reang on June 08, 2020, 01:51:12 PM

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This is where I always get in to fight with you. Nowhere in the laws of cricket, it is written that saliva is permissible. As per the laws, all forms of ball tampering is illegal. Now the laws are being interpreted in a way, to make saliva legal and other substances such as vaseline and sandpaper illegal. Let the ICC update this contentious rule. Let them specify that saliva is permitted and other substances are not.

Anyway the ICC makes new rules and update the old ones every now and then.

Hope you understand that the use of saliva is banned because of the Corona situation. The history of using saliva will be as long as they started playing cricket.

JSRAW

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Quote from: Vishnu.Reang on June 08, 2020, 01:51:12 PM

Quote from: JSRAW on June 08, 2020, 01:26:26 PM

PS : Never put "shining the ball" and "tempering the ball" at the same bracket as both are different things, Ball tempering happens when players disturbs rough part of the ball (Warner-Smith saga) or intentionally remove the seam(rare)

This is where I always get in to fight with you. Nowhere in the laws of cricket, it is written that saliva is permissible. As per the laws, all forms of ball tampering is illegal. Now the laws are being interpreted in a way, to make saliva legal and other substances such as vaseline and sandpaper illegal. Let the ICC update this contentious rule. Let them specify that saliva is permitted and other substances are not.

Anyway the ICC makes new rules and update the old ones every now and then.

Its true that there is no mention of Saliva in the rule book but shining the ball is allowed according to the rules, players can't use additional substance tho (Ex : Jelly beans) and its mutual understanding among all teams and ICC that players can use Saliva for shining.

Don't you think that every rule in cricket already favoring the batsmen and by banning this option they are literally crippling the bowlers? I wouldn't mind if they ban this or not but if they are doing it then they should also consider (1)2-3 bouncers in every over, (2)make minimum boundary size atleast 70 cm, (3) reduce the width of the bat. Give bowlers some chance to compete in modern cricket if not then use bowling machine instead of treating fast bowlers as cheap labours .

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Quote from: JSRAW on June 08, 2020, 01:26:26 PM

PS : Never put "shining the ball" and "tempering the ball" at the same bracket as both are different things, Ball tempering happens when players disturbs rough part of the ball (Warner-Smith saga) or intentionally remove the seam(rare)

This is where I always get in to fight with you. Nowhere in the laws of cricket, it is written that saliva is permissible. As per the laws, all forms of ball tampering is illegal. Now the laws are being interpreted in a way, to make saliva legal and other substances such as vaseline and sandpaper illegal. Let the ICC update this contentious rule. Let them specify that saliva is permitted and other substances are not.

Anyway the ICC makes new rules and update the old ones every now and then.

JSRAW

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Quote from: Vishnu.Reang on June 08, 2020, 12:16:11 PM

^^^ It is surprising that you think the bowlers are not capable of taking wickets without the usage of saliva. Only a minority of the bowlers use saliva or any other substance to get swing. There are a lot of good bowlers who can swing the ball naturally, just using the ground conditions. Usage of saliva puts these bowlers at a severe disadvantage.

1. Bowler use conventional swing when ball is new (inswing -outswing). Seam is important part as it creates turbulence and helps in conventional swing, new ball looks like this.

2. After inning progress ball gets old and tears off so players use saliva and sweat for shining (One side of the ball) from the start. So that they can get this result.

3. That's how swing works when bowl gets old let's say 40-50 overs

Why this unhygienic saliva technique is used? because if ball is rough from the both side then there will be no swing whatsoever for the fast bowlers in the test cricket no matter if you are Akram or Macgrath, that means no competition. in short shining the ball is very much needed, if ICC authorize alternate option for this then all good otherwise its bad move.

PS : Never put "shining the ball" and "tempering the ball" at the same bracket as both are different things, Ball tempering happens when players disturbs rough part of the ball (Warner-Smith saga) or intentionally remove the seam(rare)

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^^^ It is surprising that you think the bowlers are not capable of taking wickets without the usage of saliva. Only a minority of the bowlers use saliva or any other substance to get swing. There are a lot of good bowlers who can swing the ball naturally, just using the ground conditions. Usage of saliva puts these bowlers at a severe disadvantage.

JSRAW

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Quote from: Haunebu on June 07, 2020, 07:27:18 AM

What do you guys think of the Saliva ban recommendation? The ICC could probably implement it in order to fight Corona, but this would become a huge disadvantage to bowlers.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/sports.ndtv.com/cricket/will-saliva-ban-threaten-crickets-kings-of-swing-2242053%3famp=1&akamai-rum=off

This recommendation news is bit old at least 1 month, New update came couple of weeks back. I am okay with saliva ban (due to Covid-19 precaution) as long as they are providing alternate option to keep shine on ball, so that bowlers can compete against the batsmen.

Quote from: JSRAW on May 19, 2020, 03:24:31 AM

Official announcement coming from the ICC - No use of Saliva-
They come up with 2 extra announcement as far as cricket is concern.
- Relaxation on neutral umpire rules as International flights are limited due to Covid-19.
- Extra DRS for every team in each innings.

ICC cricket committee dissuades use of saliva to shine ball

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Quote from: Haunebu on June 07, 2020, 07:27:18 AM

What do you guys think of the Saliva ban recommendation? The ICC could probably implement it in order to fight Corona, but this would become a huge disadvantage to bowlers.

If cricket is resuming then i assume that all the players will be tested and if that is the case then there is no point in banning the use of saliva to polish the ball which is really important for a bowler, looks like everyone is paranoid and they are impulsive to come up with rules for no reason. It is discussed earlier and some were happy that an unhygienic practice is banned Cheesy

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Quote from: Haunebu on June 07, 2020, 07:27:18 AM

Should Cricket be given a higher priority than life in this instance? What if the player and their family gets infected by the virus? Health should always be the first priority.

I never said that. I was just pointing out that the West Indies players always give a lower priority to national duty. And in turn, this is having a negative impact on the prospects of the West Indies national team. What I was saying was these same players would have chosen to play the IPL, if it was scheduled for next month instead of the test series.

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Quote from: Haunebu on June 07, 2020, 07:27:18 AM

What do you guys think of the Saliva ban recommendation? The ICC could probably implement it in order to fight Corona, but this would become a huge disadvantage to bowlers.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/sports.ndtv.com/cricket/will-saliva-ban-threaten-crickets-kings-of-swing-2242053%3famp=1&akamai-rum=off

Quote from: Vishnu.Reang on June 07, 2020, 07:12:49 AM

West Indies cricket is not in a good state now. They need to win consistently against the Big 3. Nowadays, they are even struggling to get an automatic qualification for the ODI world cup.

Should Cricket be given a higher priority than life in this instance? What if the player and their family gets infected by the virus? Health should always be the first priority.

Health is first priority for all even not only for players for all so if someone is not happy with situation and want to stay at home with family its good for him and family because family came first for all.

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What do you guys think of the Saliva ban recommendation? The ICC could probably implement it in order to fight Corona, but this would become a huge disadvantage to bowlers.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/sports.ndtv.com/cricket/will-saliva-ban-threaten-crickets-kings-of-swing-2242053%3famp=1&akamai-rum=off

Quote from: Vishnu.Reang on June 07, 2020, 07:12:49 AM

West Indies cricket is not in a good state now. They need to win consistently against the Big 3. Nowadays, they are even struggling to get an automatic qualification for the ODI world cup.

Should Cricket be given a higher priority than life in this instance? What if the player and their family gets infected by the virus? Health should always be the first priority.

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Quote from: Vishnu.Reang on June 07, 2020, 07:12:49 AM

Quote from: JSRAW on June 07, 2020, 02:23:05 AM

^^Fair enough , no one can argue with that if players are not feeling comfortable due to pandemic and family concern are genuine. Test match don't pay that much amount anyway so its understandable, good part is Windies board not making any fuss over this one.

The infection rates are going down, and while I respect the decision by these players, I would not be supporting it. My question is, if the IPL was scheduled instead of the bilateral series, would these players still stay at home and forfeit the salary? West Indies cricket is not in a good state now. They need to win consistently against the Big 3. Nowadays, they are even struggling to get an automatic qualification for the ODI world cup.

Rate of new infections might decreased but the infections are not going down in most places. And test matches would be much more difficult to organize technically as all of those players needs to stay and play for days. Test cricket is much different from IPL. IPL is a money machine while viewership of test matches are record low. They might cancel every matches to go with IPL as they have the best TV viewership.

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Quote from: JSRAW on June 07, 2020, 02:23:05 AM

^^Fair enough , no one can argue with that if players are not feeling comfortable due to pandemic and family concern are genuine. Test match don't pay that much amount anyway so its understandable, good part is Windies board not making any fuss over this one.

The infection rates are going down, and while I respect the decision by these players, I would not be supporting it. My question is, if the IPL was scheduled instead of the bilateral series, would these players still stay at home and forfeit the salary? West Indies cricket is not in a good state now. They need to win consistently against the Big 3. Nowadays, they are even struggling to get an automatic qualification for the ODI world cup.

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Quote from: Juggy777 on June 07, 2020, 05:00:24 AM

@akhjob in my personal opinion they have every right to pull out of this tour, as the situation in England has yet not improved, also it’ll be really interesting to see how the player’s plan to keep the ball shining without using their saliva.

I too am not judging their decisions to quit from the tour and they have every right to be with their family during this Pandemic condition. Heck, I too have stopped going to Office and applied for leave starting this month once the Indian Govt lifted the lockdown because of family concerns. So I definitely don't mind if the WI players decided to stay with their families.
Regarding shining the ball, they better start to learn to swing the ball without the use of sweat or saliva Wink

I even read an article about Srilankan bowlers claiming that sweat is not as effective as Saliva. Guess, if they knew that they aren't allowed to use sweat either, they would have a heartbreak.

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Quote from: akhjob on June 06, 2020, 11:14:01 AM

@JSRAW So looks like the reasons for Darren Bravo, Shimron Hetmyer and Keemo Paul backing off from the ENG is related to family concerns in this Pandemic situation. Keemo Paul seems to be the sole breadwinner for a big family and he is not comfortable leaving them in this situation. Hetmeyer seems to be not comfortable with the family's safety when he leaves the country. Bravo seems to have concerns about his health and its further consequences. So ultimately it's the Corona Pandemic which made them quit the tour.

More info here - Why West Indies Trio pulled out of ENG tour

Quote from: JSRAW on June 07, 2020, 02:23:05 AM

^^Fair enough , no one can argue with that if players are not feeling comfortable due to pandemic and family concern are genuine. Test match don't pay that much amount anyway so its understandable, good part is Windies board not making any fuss over this one.

@akhjob in my personal opinion they have every right to pull out of this tour, as the situation in England has yet not improved, also it’ll be really interesting to see how the player’s plan to keep the ball shining without using their saliva. @JSRAW I’ll agree for a change the West Indies board didn’t create a scene, and this situation was amicably resolved.

Source:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/cricket/article-8351527/England-stars-told-not-sweat-saliva-ball-return-action-plan.html

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/coronavirus-updates-live-lockdown-pandemic-22141698

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^^Fair enough , no one can argue with that if players are not feeling comfortable due to pandemic and family concern are genuine. Test match don't pay that much amount anyway so its understandable, good part is Windies board not making any fuss over this one.

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@JSRAW So looks like the reasons for Darren Bravo, Shimron Hetmyer and Keemo Paul backing off from the ENG is related to family concerns in this Pandemic situation. Keemo Paul seems to be the sole breadwinner for a big family and he is not comfortable leaving them in this situation. Hetmeyer seems to be not comfortable with the family's safety when he leaves the country. Bravo seems to have concerns about his health and its further consequences. So ultimately it's the Corona Pandemic which made them quit the tour.

More info here - Why West Indies Trio pulled out of ENG tour

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Similar to concussion replacement now ICC considering Covid-19 substitutes as well (Like for Like players only) This rule might get green signal from the upcoming series next month (Eng vs WI). Nothing wrong with the proactive approach.

COVID-19 substitutes under ICC consideration

Quote

Currently, substitutes are only allowed in Test cricket in the event a player suffers a concussion, when he can be replaced by a like-for-like player. Marnus Labuschange became Test cricket's first concussion substitute when he replaced Steve Smith in Australia's team during the Lord's Test last summer after Smith was hit by a Jofra Archer bouncer.

However, the ICC are now looking at whether to extend the scope of the measure to cover any player who develops symptoms of COVID-19 during a match. Although the ECB are finalising the medical protocols that would be followed in such a scenario, the player would be isolated immediately while tested and then removed from the rest of the game to isolate if they tested positive.

Quote

COVID-replacements are certainly something that the ICC are discussing," Elworthy told Sky Sports' The Cricket Show. "I have seen communication about that and it's certainly something we hope would be allowed - specifically for Test matches, not necessarily ODIs or T20s.

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Quote from: Indymoney on June 04, 2020, 02:15:47 PM

This atitude and personal like and dislike kills beauty of West Indian cricket and many youngsters leave this for better future and join baseball and basketball worst thing is they cannot solve this all as they all belongs to different countries and all have their own stakes Chanderpaul was really great player and he done many great acheivements for them he deserve this but they stop this all with very negative way.

There is no quick-fix solution for any of this. During the past few decades, there has been a lot of emigration from the West Indies to the United States. Sports such as baseball, basketball and football are becoming more popular, because the respective sports bodies in the US are pumping a lot of money and investment (training/facilities) in to West Indies. Sadly, the ICC is not doing anything to make cricket more attractive there, apart from transferring the annual revenue share to WICB.

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Quote from: Vishnu.Reang on June 04, 2020, 02:06:31 PM

Quote from: FIFA worldcup on June 04, 2020, 12:51:26 PM

Also you can see the performace of the West Indies team for last 20 years. Apart from some good wins in T20, they have nothing much to show. One of the reason of West Indies team decline is this politics within the team and no proper structure pf the cricket in their country.

The West Indian cricket structure is very complex, simply because it is an amalgam of close to two dozen independent states and territories. The regional bias is there with every country. In India, people such as Gavaskar and Kumble have been accused of favoring their own states. But with WICB, this regional bias gets in to another level. Legendary players such as Shivnarine Chanderpaul have received bad treatment from the WICB, as a result of this regional/racial bias. Chanderpaul was dropped from the squad, just because the selectors didn't wanted him to end up with more test runs when compared to Brian Lara (he was in top form, and just needed 86 more runs).

I am not saying that Chanderpaul is not to blame. He was very vocal about his race and religion, and it irritated a lot of people.

This atitude and personal like and dislike kills beauty of West Indian cricket and many youngsters leave this for better future and join baseball and basketball worst thing is they cannot solve this all as they all belongs to different countries and all have their own stakes Chanderpaul was really great player and he done many great acheivements for them he deserve this but they stop this all with very negative way.

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Quote from: FIFA worldcup on June 04, 2020, 12:51:26 PM

Also you can see the performace of the West Indies team for last 20 years. Apart from some good wins in T20, they have nothing much to show. One of the reason of West Indies team decline is this politics within the team and no proper structure pf the cricket in their country.

The West Indian cricket structure is very complex, simply because it is an amalgam of close to two dozen independent states and territories. The regional bias is there with every country. In India, people such as Gavaskar and Kumble have been accused of favoring their own states. But with WICB, this regional bias gets in to another level. Legendary players such as Shivnarine Chanderpaul have received bad treatment from the WICB, as a result of this regional/racial bias. Chanderpaul was dropped from the squad, just because the selectors didn't wanted him to end up with more test runs when compared to Brian Lara (he was in top form, and just needed 86 more runs).

I am not saying that Chanderpaul is not to blame. He was very vocal about his race and religion, and it irritated a lot of people.

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