Using ToS against users normal? - page 20.

BenCodie

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Quote from: KiaKia on May 25, 2023, 07:48:32 AM

Changing of terms and conditions without notifying the users or gamblers is normal with online gambling websites? Then when you did something wrong or about to withdraw your money they will tell you that you don't read their terms and conditions, and you start arguing with them until you decide to read the ToS again and you find out that it's different.

Some gambling websites consist of wicked owners that willingly plan to defraud their users using the ToS against them, or is this normal? Have such happened to anyone on this forum before?

Yes, unfortunately this is one of the dirty tricks that many casinos in this board use in order to profit from players illicitly. I've seen many complaints and accusations claiming that accounts have been locked/flagged with reference to ToS that did not previously exist. Most recently as far as I have seen, is the accusation of Kingrojie against Stake.com. There are many more like this.

It's wrong. It's fraud. A lot of the board are guilty and a lot of this casinos deserve to be boycotted.

That won't happen though.

Mauser

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Quote from: KiaKia on May 25, 2023, 07:48:32 AM

Changing of terms and conditions without notifying the users or gamblers is normal with online gambling websites? Then when you did something wrong or about to withdraw your money they will tell you that you don't read their terms and conditions, and you start arguing with them until you decide to read the ToS again and you find out that it's different.

Some gambling websites consist of wicked owners that willingly plan to defraud their users using the ToS against them, or is this normal? Have such happened to anyone on this forum before?

I think it's not fair if online casinos change their ToS without notifying their customers, they should at least send an email to all the registered accounts informing them about the change. As for gamblers who play incognito it might be harder to make them aware of the changes. We should look at the changes of the ToS carefully to find out if this something deliberately done to undermine us gamblers or is just usual adjustments that happen from time to time. I would expect that in most cases the casino is not going to change the ToS only for one or two users. The big casinos have thousands of customers and would you really want to make them angry only to prevent a few users to withdraw their money? In case we missed some changes of the ToS there are some websites that save older internet versions, we could try and check the Wayback Machine for internet archives of the casino website.

avp2306

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Quote from: Porfirii on May 29, 2023, 04:36:20 AM

Quote from: avp2306 on May 29, 2023, 04:03:53 AM

Quote from: KiaKia on May 29, 2023, 03:18:09 AM

If any one casino already have it in their terms and conditions that they can modify their ToS any time, that's a red flag and not safe to use, I will run away from such an online gambling platform because they can tramp on their users easily.

Its big red flag since you can use that if someone wants to withdraw a huge money on their platform and tell that the user violate some rules written on their updated TOS. If we can see a casino doing this much better if we could just avoid them since for sure they are shady and will not deliver good experience to their gamblers.

I guess there are incident like this happen so we also need to be vigilant if this happened on the casino where we currently playing.

In the last years I have witnessed a few cases where the ToS were changed without prior notice. In these cases, the terms and conditions stated that the casino could change the rules at any time without the need to notify users.

I have seen that other casinos set a 15 days period from the decision making to the implementation of the new rules, although I have reasonable doubts and I don't think that all users will check them twice a month for changes.

Since this is happening where changes sometimes made and casino didn't notify their user then its good to check if there's updated version of their TOS so that we can see if there's added restriction so that we can avoid it.

But for me if I know the casino I usually play changes the their TOS without any reason and if there's legitimate user get affected on their updates I will have doubt to come back at their site and maybe I will also warn my friends not to play on that casino due to that reason.

Alisha-k

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Quote from: KiaKia on May 25, 2023, 07:48:32 AM

Changing of terms and conditions without notifying the users or gamblers is normal with online gambling websites? Then when you did something wrong or about to withdraw your money they will tell you that you don't read their terms and conditions, and you start arguing with them until you decide to read the ToS again and you find out that it's different.

Some gambling websites consist of wicked owners that willingly plan to defraud their users using the ToS against them, or is this normal? Have such happened to anyone on this forum before?

I have never experienced this, a reputable casino, should not change their TOC, the can modify it and that's okay, because it still keeps the original agreement in check only that it was modify to be of better interest to either the customer or themselves and to better meet the societal standard of online casino's, so we should constantly make it a point of duty to check out on the TOC to be sure we're on track.

Strongkored

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Quote from: KiaKia on May 25, 2023, 07:48:32 AM

Changing of terms and conditions without notifying the users or gamblers is normal with online gambling websites? Then when you did something wrong or about to withdraw your money they will tell you that you don't read their terms and conditions, and you start arguing with them until you decide to read the ToS again and you find out that it's different.

Some gambling websites consist of wicked owners that willingly plan to defraud their users using the ToS against them, or is this normal? Have such happened to anyone on this forum before?

Because you have mentioned the wicked owner, it is clear that only casinos or gambling sites that are made to cheat will do this, legit casinos will not possibly break the trust they have built just to trick users so they cannot make withdrawals. Sometimes we like to speculate about a lot of bad things about casinos but casinos are a business that have rules so we have to know and obey them and if the casino has been running long enough it's impossible for them to cheat in a sneaky way like you mentioned unless they really have a plan go as a scam because building a trust is not easy.
Some time ago, stake casino users, when logging in to their accounts, will be shown a message display that only if we scroll to the bottom and click the green button will be able to make us carry out activities on our account, but I'm sure that the length of the message that appears may not be 1% of users who will be willing to read because it's boring, so if we don't want to read casino rules then we must be prepared to accept all the risks that will be faced in the future regarding our account.

tusandii

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Quote from: xSkylarx on May 29, 2023, 04:34:24 AM

That casino is not normal because usually if you are existing users they will send it to you via email the new ToS, or when you log back in to the casino a new ToS will be displayed and you will need to again agree to it. I am not sure what casino this is, but it is better to stay away from it. Also, also it is great to have a copy of the ToS every time you venture to another casino so that you have proof before and have a strong case with your problem.

That is, if the old user does, the casino team will send via email or provide on the beginning page when accessing the site to agree to the new regulations.
But that's only for gamblers who are already old customers, while for new gamblers they have to read at the bottom of the site where there is a Tos that can be understood in its entirety so they know what the rules and regulations of the casino site are.
But I'm not sure there can be many new gamblers who want to do that.

coinerer

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Quote from: KiaKia on May 25, 2023, 07:48:32 AM

Changing of terms and conditions without notifying the users or gamblers is normal with online gambling websites? Then when you did something wrong or about to withdraw your money they will tell you that you don't read their terms and conditions, and you start arguing with them until you decide to read the ToS again and you find out that it's different.

Some gambling websites consist of wicked owners that willingly plan to defraud their users using the ToS against them, or is this normal? Have such happened to anyone on this forum before?

Gambling sites can change any of their rules with their official team but after the change they must inform all users through email or site notification to make everyone aware of the new rules. But gambling sites will be held responsible if they hide it after changing their rules and users face problems unknowingly. And for these activities their reputation will be damaged and they will lose many gamblers. and I don't think any reputable casino site would do such a thing.

famososMuertos

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Quote from: so98nn on May 26, 2023, 10:47:07 PM

...//...::

+1

The ToS has a gray color and it is usually an interpretation that tends to go to the casino side, yes, but they do notify you of a change in terms or conditions, it is very rare in a serious and prestigious casino, I would say that it does not happen, at least in all the casinos where I have played.

Yes, it is a bad practice, but we know how to avoid it, look for serious casinos and businesses and with prestige, then, the result or solution to any situation that arises its the same as quality of the casino where you put your money.

Doan9269

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Quote from: KiaKia on May 29, 2023, 03:18:09 AM

If any one casino already have it in their terms and conditions that they can modify their ToS any time, that's a red flag and not safe to use, I will run away from such an online gambling platform because they can tramp on their users easily.

Well this may actually be your own personal decision because to me i see it that it's more being professional that they had already stated it in their ToS than implementing what is not stated in there, ToS are meant to be considerable enough for the gambling platforms and the gamblers altogether, this mutual benefit must be established that no one is affected from ToS if ammeded or not.

Quote from: KiaKia on May 29, 2023, 03:18:09 AM

A online gambling platform that cares about their business and that of their customers must send out a notification via email address to all their users about the change of ToS and request them to go through the updates and changes before they start gambling starting from so and so date.

Yes, at least one of the reasons for giving out informations on KYC request is to be able to communicate any change or development to users through their contacts provided or email address ised in registration, they are not to seek their consent or opinion, but to get gamblers informed on new developments.

Porfirii

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Quote from: avp2306 on May 29, 2023, 04:03:53 AM

Quote from: KiaKia on May 29, 2023, 03:18:09 AM

If any one casino already have it in their terms and conditions that they can modify their ToS any time, that's a red flag and not safe to use, I will run away from such an online gambling platform because they can tramp on their users easily.

Its big red flag since you can use that if someone wants to withdraw a huge money on their platform and tell that the user violate some rules written on their updated TOS. If we can see a casino doing this much better if we could just avoid them since for sure they are shady and will not deliver good experience to their gamblers.

I guess there are incident like this happen so we also need to be vigilant if this happened on the casino where we currently playing.

In the last years I have witnessed a few cases where the ToS were changed without prior notice. In these cases, the terms and conditions stated that the casino could change the rules at any time without the need to notify users.

I have seen that other casinos set a 15 days period from the decision making to the implementation of the new rules, although I have reasonable doubts and I don't think that all users will check them twice a month for changes.

xSkylarx

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That casino is not normal because usually if you are existing users they will send it to you via email the new ToS, or when you log back in to the casino a new ToS will be displayed and you will need to again agree to it. I am not sure what casino this is, but it is better to stay away from it. Also, also it is great to have a copy of the ToS every time you venture to another casino so that you have proof before and have a strong case with your problem.

Jody.Drummer

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Quote from: dezoel on May 27, 2023, 06:26:55 AM

No, it's not normal. Though most of the platforms or websites mentioned in their terms and conditions that they have all the rights to make any changes, add or remove or modify any rule from their terms and conditions without having to inform anyone. Usually, when there is a change in the privacy policy or terms and conditions, they send an email to notify their users along with the new and updated ToS or Privacy policies.

It's obviously unethical if they change something from it that directly or indirectly affects their users or gamblers, in that case, they are supposed to let their gamblers know right after the change is made so that they can change their practices and keep the change in their minds all the time.

While they do have the right to change their terms and conditions at any time, they also have the obligation to notify users in advance that they will change their terms and conditions. It's easy for them to do that if they are a gambling platform that doesn't want to give losses to the users. As you said, they can give a notification via e-mail, or they can make an announcement through their official account on social media that in the future and within the time they have determined they will update the terms and conditions.
But if the gambling platform has other intentions, or they plan to make users lose money, then they will do that at any time and without prior notification.

avp2306

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Quote from: KiaKia on May 29, 2023, 03:18:09 AM

If any one casino already have it in their terms and conditions that they can modify their ToS any time, that's a red flag and not safe to use, I will run away from such an online gambling platform because they can tramp on their users easily.

Its big red flag since you can use that if someone wants to withdraw a huge money on their platform and tell that the user violate some rules written on their updated TOS. If we can see a casino doing this much better if we could just avoid them since for sure they are shady and will not deliver good experience to their gamblers.

I guess there are incident like this happen so we also need to be vigilant if this happened on the casino where we currently playing.

KiaKia

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If any one casino already have it in their terms and conditions that they can modify their ToS any time, that's a red flag and not safe to use, I will run away from such an online gambling platform because they can tramp on their users easily.

A online gambling platform that cares about their business and that of their customers must send out a notification via email address to all their users about the change of ToS and request them to go through the updates and changes before they start gambling starting from so and so date.

Because some users or customers might not like the new adjustments and they should be free to withdraw their funds and stop using the platform if they don't like the new rules of the platform.

If they can't do this, they can't be trusted.

dezoel

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No, it's not normal. Though most of the platforms or websites mentioned in their terms and conditions that they have all the rights to make any changes, add or remove or modify any rule from their terms and conditions without having to inform anyone. Usually, when there is a change in the privacy policy or terms and conditions, they send an email to notify their users along with the new and updated ToS or Privacy policies.

It's obviously unethical if they change something from it that directly or indirectly affects their users or gamblers, in that case, they are supposed to let their gamblers know right after the change is made so that they can change their practices and keep the change in their minds all the time.

summonerrk

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Quote from: KiaKia on May 25, 2023, 07:48:32 AM

Changing of terms and conditions without notifying the users or gamblers is normal with online gambling websites? Then when you did something wrong or about to withdraw your money they will tell you that you don't read their terms and conditions, and you start arguing with them until you decide to read the ToS again and you find out that it's different.

Some gambling websites consist of wicked owners that willingly plan to defraud their users using the ToS against them, or is this normal? Have such happened to anyone on this forum before?

Of course, this is wrong, any changes on the part of the service must be agreed with the user.
Unfortunately, I myself have encountered a similar situation from the gambling service. At the same time, such a problem always occurs during the withdrawal of earned funds.

To avoid such a problem in the future, I advise you to save a pdf file of the terms of the user agreement (you) and the gambling site. This way it will always be possible to compare the old and the new agreement file and provide it to the support service in case of misunderstanding.

mindrust

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Quote from: khaled0111 on May 26, 2023, 04:31:27 PM

Quote from: mindrust on May 26, 2023, 03:16:50 AM

If it was something like using multi acc, using VPN etc and it didn't caused any financial dmg then why seize the funds? It makes no sense. Some people use multi acc because they forget their old acc's password and create a new acc instead of trying to remember the pass of their old acc. Should the casino seize the money of this player? Of course no.

Sorry, but you are wrong. If a customer loses access to his account for whatever reason, then what he must do is to contact customer support and ask for them to help him recover his account or at least ask if it's OK to create a new account (alt) and abondon the first one. I took this example just to prove a point: if you break the ToS of any service then you are at fault regardless of your intentions.

You are technically right but we humans sometimes forget the things we don't really care about. I might lose the existence of my old casino account from 3 years ago for example. The casino will have the right to seize my funds just because I made another account by mistake? Is this what you are saying? The ToS says "don't use multiple accounts" but that don't give them the right to seize the funds of the player unless this act alone caused them any financial harm.

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Quote from: KiaKia on May 25, 2023, 07:48:32 AM

Changing of terms and conditions without notifying the users or gamblers is normal with online gambling websites?

I think there's something about a choice whether you'll receive or not the changes on these terms and conditions afaik but not entirely sure. I always put my notifs on and never have ever got any problem on this stuffs. I think this isn't normal if they are just updating it without anything that supports it like posting it on their social media or those who are on their email subscriptions list.

In reality even if these casinos tend to notify every members on their platform most won't give a time to open them up when needed, they'll just know it when there's something happen on their own accounts.

avp2306

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Quote from: worle1bm on May 27, 2023, 01:16:33 AM

I am also of the opinion that if casino is changing any rules in their T&C they should have a pop up menu coming up whenever a user login that conditions have been updated so have a look on them otherwise some might be gambling keeping in mind the old one's and casino can use it in their favour to safeguard them from any scam accusations without the knowledge of players.They should inform the players beforehand as it's also the sign of legit casino who gives transparency to players.

Agree with this or at least they should announce the updated TOS so that their user will be aware if there's changes and it will not create confusion in long run. They can also save up some time to explaining to people posting some allegation and they cannot use the claims that they don't know about those rules since they announce it for them to read. Although this is not sign that they are legit but at least people can read about important things they need to follow and know what to avoid.

Outhue

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The truth needs to be told, like, who still reads T&S this days? How many gamblers on this forum reads T&S from the beginning to the end? The numbers will be very limited that's why such casinos will win whenever they bring up any creepy claims.

This is also why it could be hard to trust a new online casino, I will always prefer to use old and not too old online casinos instead of new casinos because you don't know what they will do to users or how they will care for their customers and I am not ready to be the first batch of testers either.

I believe you won't have a problem if the online casino you use is a top one on the lists of reliable casinos, this is the only way to avoid bad online casinos that use the changing of rules in their T&S for time to time, it's creepy and uncool.

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