Topic: Why do Atheists Hate Religion? - page 259. (Read 901367 times)

^LOL Cause there aren't any homosexuals in Iran, rofl.

I will only comment on this part of your discourse.  This is patently and demonstratably false.

It is well understood that "those men who have called other people toward God" can be sociopaths, homosexuals, narcissic, pedophil, alcoholics, drug addicts, criminals,  and have any and every other personality disorder, weakness or flaw that may be seen in the human character.  That of course is what one should expect.

Only in those countries where criticizing the Religions Men is a crime, or not allowed culturally, are such men and/or women "All pious and righteous men."  That is where you punish and do not allow anything else to be said.

And that's why you Muslims didn't like Salmon Rushbi.

The existence of God looks like an obvious truth to the believers, but to the non-believers it is, as if covered with seven veils. I have gathered some points from every day logic and some from historical prospective to provide a base to prove existence of God to the non-believers. I understand that each point that follows could be a topic for discussion, but I have tried my best to put as much as possible in a limited space.

1.   All RELIGIONS BELIEVE IN GOD
Its an undeniable fact that all the religions on this earth claim to be from GOD. Hadhrat Muhammad (SAW), Moses, Jesus, Krishna, Buddha, Baba Nanak and every religious leader taught people to believe and worship GOD. Although all religions have slight differences in the attributes they ascribe to God, but all the religions hold the common view that there is a God who has created this universe. History tells us that even those ancient religions that no longer exist in this world, they also held the view of God, whether they were in ancient America, or in jungles of Africa or in England, or in Java or Sumatra, or in Japan and China or in Siberia or in India. It is an important point that what's the reason for this thought provoking unity among so varied religions? In the ancient times people were not linked together through any means of communication or transport, then how is it possible that people living in isolation thousands of mile away from each other, held the common view about the existence of God? Many of the lands were even not discovered at that time.Even now it is difficult for two persons to completely agree on any issue, then how come this universal unanimity regarding existence of God? All these facts lead us to the only possible conclusion that not only there is a living God but also that God has always manifested Himself through some means to his men to make them believe in Him. Historians agree that if there is such universal unanimity about any issue then there is no reason to disagree with it. Another fact worth noting is that there have been a small number of atheists all the times, this proves that the 'existence of God' is not related to any psychological need of human beings. In this world, one can lead ones life without acknowledging the existence of God, though he will be attempting to close his eyes to the very obvious and clear truth.

2.   WHO ARE THOSE WHO CALL PEOPLE TOWARDS GOD?
If we look at the life of all those men, who have called other people towards God, we find a surprising common thing about all of them, that they were very pious and righteous men. They were the people who were respected in their nations. They were true people, who spent their lives to guide people to the right path. They persuaded people to shun oppressing others. They taught to look after the poor and needy. They fought all their life against the unjust rulers of the time. They were invariably opposed by the people in power at that time, although They were highly honoured and valued for the purity of their character, even by those who later, on the announcement of their claims, became their enemies. It is inconceivable that those who did not lie about men, began suddenly to lie about God. They were the people whose lives were exemplary for others. Whether it is Indian Krishna, or Irani Zoroaster or Egyptian Moses, or Israelite Christ or Punjabi Baba Nanak, or Leader of the righteous Muhammad (SAW) who was given the title of Trustworthy by his nation from his very youth and who challenged his nation that he had led all of his life among them and Could they point out to any single lie or felony in his life? So all these righteous persons who came to this world at different times and places, all of them say one thing in common... "There is a GOD.... There is a GOD...." Not only they claimed that there is a God but also they claimed that He talked to them.
One may find great philosophers or scholars in the world who have done great works, but their work cannot be compared to the work of those righteous persons. Actually if we study the lives of those philosophers we find that no great deeds compared to their lofty sayings. Why is it that these great philosophers were not able to exhibit that righteousness which was shown by people from GOD? The people whose names I have mentioned above, all of them faced great hardships in the life due to their teachings but nothing could lead them astray from the true path. Their killings were planned, they were exiled from their homes and they were boycotted, but they never gave up their beliefs. Why did not they tell lie and relieve themselves from those hardships that were imposed on them just because of their true belief in God. Their lack of interest in material desires proves it that they were selfless people. When such truthful and trustworthy people are saying it in unison, that they have met with God, they have listened His voice and they have experienced his manifestations, then it really leaves us with no doubt. Even in this material world the people whom we know that they are habitual liars, when they go to a court and speak something under an oath, they are believed, then why don't we believe in those righteous persons?

Quoting myself:

Here the word Faith means faith in the Supreme.

Something that worship an idol is not a Religion.


I repeat my question:

Thank You


Best regards.

Tesla was very smart. Probably he was using an early form of what would become modern Quantum Math in his future.

Thank Goodness that we have the Bible, because not even the Indians who use Yoga have done this decoding without seeing the Bible first... if they have even done it then.

Well, let me tell you something about Tesla... After he devote his entire life to study the spiritual world throughout the science, he found out that everything what is written in the Bible can be decoded throughout the Yoga!

It is like this.

God is creator of all and is over all.

Anyone who is able to worship God and does not do so is at best simply undecided or ignorant.

An atheist sets himself up as greater than God by claiming that God does not exist... especially in the face of the evidence of the existence of the universe that shows that God exists.

The atheist is idolizing himself in this way, in a more foundational way than someone idolizes some movie star singer. He is an idolator. He may not think that he is an idolator, but according to the definitions, he is, no matter what he thinks.

No, that was sophistry. An idolator needs to worship an idol. An atheist worships nothing.


Sorry, I'm just not understanding what you're saying, or what the comparison is that you're drawing. Can you provide a concrete example - what exactly is it that you think atheists are worshiping?

The question is, is an atheist worshiping himself when he suggests that he is worshiping nothing? He is holding his views higher than God's, especially in the face of the scientific proof that God exists. The only strength that mankind has is from God.

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idolatry:The fact that an atheist doesn't know that he is worshiping himself doesn't make it untrue.

From http://www.gotquestions.org/idolatry-definition.html:
From http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/idolatry?s=t:
In conjunction with the above, from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/idol:
An atheist is definitely an idolater.

If you are talking to me, I don't recall stating this. Do you have the quote reference location?

Do gays, atheists and people of false religions have lives at all? Of course they do. I didn't make them live. God made them live... even though they will all die sometime. God has not placed me or most Christians into a position of authority to judge when to put the ungodly and unrighteous to death, or even punish them.


God has not placed me into a position of power and authority so that I can determine any of this. It doesn't mean that I don't recognize sin, or that I love the evil that is going on.


This is at least partially true. However, God uses everything to get the things that He wants done, done.

When somewhat ignorant Christians physically fight peaceful but more ignorant non-Christians, such Christians are probably wrong in doing this. But God uses it to teach His people, and to put down rebellion against God in the ungodly. Only God and a few wise people understand what is going on in the background.


A Christian - a person who believes in Jesus salvation - is not all knowing. Just because he is a Christian doesn't mean he has all wisdom and understanding, and always uses the best judgement. However, a Christian has the most important piece of knowledge and understanding that exists. He has salvation to everlasting life with God.

Did I ask about respect? ALL people fit into the cast of irrational in their understandings and beliefs. Respect the person for the fact that he is a person. Don't respect his knowledge and understanding if you think they are wrong. Why? Because you are not any better, and are "condemning" yourself to a life of self-disrespect when you disrespect others rather than their beliefs.


This is true. As an example, the science of passing an electric current through water that is not distilled to produce separated oxygen and hydrogen gasses, is factual science. Science that says that the Big Bang happened is not factual science (although to the atheist it might be).

When a person believes that something that has not been determined to be fact, is indeed fact (like many people believe about the Big Bang and much other science theory), have they not formed a religion for themselves in certain ways? In addition, when I show that God exists scientifically, by factual laws of science, and nobody can refute it even though they talk about attempted refutations, and even they talk like it has been refuted, who has the irrational religion?


I guess that you are not talking to me. So, I apologize if I act like you are.

Moral code does not change. Why not? People do not change.

While we are a weaker people than the people who lived at the time the Ten Commandments were written, we are not different. Look at the statues and engravings from that time. People back then had heads, arms and legs, hands and feet, and torsos, just like they do today. The workings of their minds and spirits have not changed, either.


Actually, the reason for problems in life is that people do NOT follow the Bible.

Uri Harel, a great, late, Jewish rabbi and scholar, has shown that there are only 12 mistakes in the Old Testament. These mistakes are not the kind that change any of the teaching or theme. They are simply mistakes where we don't understand exactly how the Hebrew letters fit together to form what is being said by God.

God is keeping His word pure. He is at the same time showing us that we are imperfect beings, no matter how hard we try to remain perfect.



You have a lot to learn when you think that immoral code is going to bring more peace and goodness than moral code.

No, that was sophistry. An idolator needs to worship an idol. An atheist worships nothing.

Atheism is idolatry in this way.

God exists, and says that He is above all in the Bible. Atheists say He doesn't exist. Because of this, atheists are setting themselves up higher than God in their hearts. Atheism makes mankind out to be the the god. But since mankind is NOT God, atheists are setting themselves up as an idol. This is the religion of humanism. This is idolatry.

Well, You are the exception when you state: " I am a Christian but have no problem with people who are gay,atheist, or from a different religion."

I would gather from this statement -- as opposed to the stand of many Christians -- that you would allow an atheist to hold public office -- NOT allowed in many areas of the country, and agree that gays TOO have the civil right to marriage.

Too often, some "religious believers" DO have such trouble with opposing beliefs. And when they characterize people with different beliefs, (or no religious belief) as sinners and immoral, and worse not even capable of living a moral life, then many people, including atheist, start to object.

Too often these "religious believers" practice unjust discrimination toward people who believe differently.

In some fanatical cases it even escalates into violence.

You ask about RESPECT? I am sorry. I CAN NOT respect anyone who because of their irrational and inherently contradictory "beliefs" bring unjust suffering and pain into this world. When "believers" teach their children to ignore logic and reason in favor of bigotry and blind faith, then this is destructive to society.

Too often the phrase "I love the sinner but hate the sin" leads to hatred of the supposed sinner. Some Christians (and others of other faiths) may STATE that they love their fellow man, but their ACTIONS prove otherwise.

When bigoted "believers" start spending millions to pass hate legislation and to deny segments of our society their JUST civil rights in the name of their "religion" THEN sorry I simply can NOT respect their beliefs.

And they are correct, too often in the past, religion HAS led to unjust war, persecutions, violence, and such" just read some history. When religious fanatics obtain secular power, all manner of injustice and horrific persecutions Proceed. Just look at the history of the Catholic Church in the Middle ages.

It is BECAUSE many people of 'religious belief" CAN NOT in fact respect the differing beliefs of others which causes the problem.

And even when egregious actions do not take place, just by the fact that so many "religious people" condemn and judge others around them, and make every effort to alienate from family, government, and church, and other societal institutions, those who "believe differently" this itself brings too much unnecessary pain and suffering to innocent people.

Just read some of the replies on this forum concerning abortion, gay rights, gay marriage, and even something as inflammatory as evolution, and you will see my point.

When a child is taught to ignore scientific evidence, to ignore logic, to ignore reason, and make their moral judgments based on ignorance and bigotry and moral codes which no reasonable person can follow, and on obviously UNTRUE statements (or untrue interpretations of statements) found in writings 2000 years old, this is itself seen by many (including atheists) as IMMORAL and damaging to the very children they are raising.

Bad psychology is bad theology. Yet many people of religious belief totally ignore the consequences of their beliefs and the forcing of these beliefs on too many vulnerable children.

For just one small example, the suicide rate in this country of gay teens is not 4 to 10 times that of non-gay teens because of nothing. Violence towards gays did not increase 4 fold in CA after the fighting over Prop 8 for nothing. People's beliefs have consequences, and when these consequences bring harm to innocent people, then sorry I can NOt respect those beliefs.

And you obviously do not know your 10 commandments. Please explain which one speaks of do not hate your fellow man? And this brings in an important issue. NO ONE today, NO ONE follows the 10 commandments as they were understood by the Hebrew when they were FIRST written. MORAL CODE changes!

People today do NOT follow the Bible -- and for this we should be VERY thankful. But to claim that the Bible is an inerrant source for moral code today IS A LARGE PART OF THE PROBLEM! First of all, nothing could be further from the truth. But on the other hand, most people FIRST formulate their beliefs, and THEN use the Bible to validate them.

PLEASE -- this is WHY atheist so adamantly dislike your religion. STOP formulating moral code based on an ignorant so-called book of revealed truth formulated by ignorant men, when such moral code brings unnecessary pain, harm, and suffering.

There is much of human wisdom written in the Christian scriptures. But to claim that ALL of this scripture is to be used as a conclusive source of moral code is the height of ignorance, irrationality, and limits the pursuit of justice in today's society..

From Micah 6:8 (Old Testament):
This is for you, both to see how you are obeying, and to learn how to obey better.

Make just judgment in your heart about the things that people say and do, whether it is righteous or not. Warn people when they sin, as you have been doing.

Then, in mercy, give them the benefit of the doubt. Why? Because you are not perfect either, and you absolutely DO want God to give you the benefit of the doubt so that you are not punished and destroyed.

Then, Walk humbly with God, as you are doing by studying His Word, so that you learn all the ways that God wants you to live, and the ways that He wants you to treat others.

If a time ever comes that God places you in a position of power, a position where you have the duty of judging other people's lives while rewarding an punishing them, at that time wisely show mercy, and wisely punish.

From Isaiah 66:2b, God speaking through Isaiah:
BitNow is humble, humble enough that he seeks God and tries to obey Him. BitNow is contrite, sorry for his sins and mistakes, and tries to do better. BitNow trembles at God's Word, constantly studying and trying to reconcile what goes on in life with what God wants done.

But you, Fluffer. You are bold, not humble, when you stand up against God and His word. You certainly aren't contrite, because you continue to express that you are against God, if only by trying to ignore His existence. And the only trembling you might happen to do at God's word is laughter.

The point? If BitNow gets punishment for not being correct enough, your punishment will be utter destruction in painful agony.

No quite, actually here is the full dictionary definition of the word "idolatry":

noun, plural idolatries.
1. the religious worship of idols.
2. excessive or blind adoration, reverence, devotion, etc.

BitNow is a strong supporter of idolatry as he worships the Pope. Fits definition #2 like a glove. 

BitNow don't forget....


 So when you due for your punishment?

Plenty of religions worship images as gods.

(my italics) 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idolatry


So I repeat my question: How is atheism "idolatry"?

The answer is simple. You can do whatever you want in the name of the creator (different names belong to in every religion)
Religions are here only for poor to not kill rich and obey their rules.

"Idolatry means the worship of images as if they were gods."
- https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/idolatry

Where do you see the word Religion in that definition?

---

Missing what?!?


That's precisely why I'm discussing that: I need to sort out Old Testament before going to the new one.

Old testament: atheism is a capital sin.
1. Sin of Idolatry
"Thou shalt have no other gods before me"
- Ex 20:3 (1st Commandement)
2. Pusnishment is death
"The Sin of the Calf"
- Ex 32:4

Thank You


Best regards.


PS: N.2 not really something I like to discuss about.

How can you miss it? 

So you you're satisfied with going on faith despite the good book specifically stating otherwise; 1 Thessalonians 5:21?