I've already filed with the BBB and the AG of KS. I'm thinking of modifying my filing with the FTC, as my initial filing was before I asked for a refund. Now that I have a response denying a refund, and a response confirming that they are denying it (in spite of my bringing up the FTC mail order rule), I should be updating the FTC with the details (or maybe filing anew and having the previous file superseded). Also, a reminder to all that Leawood and Overland Park are both in Johnson County, so it may also be good to do a paper filing with the DA here: http://da.jocogov.org/complaint-forms .
Note: when I filed with the FTC last August 5, it was to register the complaint that the seller has not provided me a definite shipping date for my order, and has announced that they do not accept refund requests.
Topic: YES, you can get a REFUND from BFL - page 16. (Read 45622 times)
i filed a claim with the FTC last week as well.
Yeah, found that too. Interesting indeed. Filed an FTC Complaint now.
So now everyone else, also have courage and file an FTC complain straight away. Let's give Josh a taste of his own medicine.
Something very interesting regarding BFL's shipping practice from the FTC website:
http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule
This is a VERY interesting read!!
Some of the key points:
1) after ordering, BFL had 30 days to deliver our product. If they were not able to ship in that time frame, they were to notify all customers and ask if they wanted to maintain their order. By 60 days of not shipping, they were to contact ALL customers and offer to refund their money, if they were not able to contact the customer, then they were required to refund the money.
2) They are also required to refund the money if the customer requests a refund if their product has not shipped. Note this is completely different than BFL’s policy of not refunding because “we are shipping product”.
3) It is also VERY interesting that BFL is exposing themselves to fines of $16,000 per occurrence of breaking the rules. Since they are breaking the rules for EACH and EVERY customer, this alone could be enough to break this company if people start complaining to the FTC.
Quoted from http://tarspublishing.com/butterflyrefund/
http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule
This is a VERY interesting read!!
Some of the key points:
1) after ordering, BFL had 30 days to deliver our product. If they were not able to ship in that time frame, they were to notify all customers and ask if they wanted to maintain their order. By 60 days of not shipping, they were to contact ALL customers and offer to refund their money, if they were not able to contact the customer, then they were required to refund the money.
2) They are also required to refund the money if the customer requests a refund if their product has not shipped. Note this is completely different than BFL’s policy of not refunding because “we are shipping product”.
3) It is also VERY interesting that BFL is exposing themselves to fines of $16,000 per occurrence of breaking the rules. Since they are breaking the rules for EACH and EVERY customer, this alone could be enough to break this company if people start complaining to the FTC.
Quoted from http://tarspublishing.com/butterflyrefund/
Yeah, found that too. Interesting indeed. Filed an FTC Complaint now.
@Sockpuppets : don't try to mess this thread so noone finds any answers/help!
(oh you are no sockpuppets ? Then Sooorry, but get lost and fight somewhere else! )
Something very interesting regarding BFL's shipping practice from the FTC website:
http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule
This is a VERY interesting read!!
Some of the key points:
1) after ordering, BFL had 30 days to deliver our product. If they were not able to ship in that time frame, they were to notify all customers and ask if they wanted to maintain their order. By 60 days of not shipping, they were to contact ALL customers and offer to refund their money, if they were not able to contact the customer, then they were required to refund the money.
2) They are also required to refund the money if the customer requests a refund if their product has not shipped. Note this is completely different than BFL’s policy of not refunding because “we are shipping product”.
3) It is also VERY interesting that BFL is exposing themselves to fines of $16,000 per occurrence of breaking the rules. Since they are breaking the rules for EACH and EVERY customer, this alone could be enough to break this company if people start complaining to the FTC.
Quoted from http://tarspublishing.com/butterflyrefund/
http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule
This is a VERY interesting read!!
Some of the key points:
1) after ordering, BFL had 30 days to deliver our product. If they were not able to ship in that time frame, they were to notify all customers and ask if they wanted to maintain their order. By 60 days of not shipping, they were to contact ALL customers and offer to refund their money, if they were not able to contact the customer, then they were required to refund the money.
2) They are also required to refund the money if the customer requests a refund if their product has not shipped. Note this is completely different than BFL’s policy of not refunding because “we are shipping product”.
3) It is also VERY interesting that BFL is exposing themselves to fines of $16,000 per occurrence of breaking the rules. Since they are breaking the rules for EACH and EVERY customer, this alone could be enough to break this company if people start complaining to the FTC.
Quoted from http://tarspublishing.com/butterflyrefund/
The main reason customers ARE complaining so much NOW is because BFL IS SHIPPING and they can watch as the difficulty climbs into the clouds. The very same customers would have been complaining just as loudly back in December if BFL HAD shipped on time, for the very same reasons. I started mining in April and with less than 1GH of GPUs have mined over 2 BTC alone not counting the BTC I got from mining other coins and converting into BTC. If I had been mining back in Oct through May I would have probably had 8-10 more to add to that total. The people who ordered big from BFL likely have quite a bit more hashing power than I do. Except for the very first people to order, kinda the same as now, I bet a lot of people made more from their existing equipment than they would have from the BFL products:
If BFL had shipped the equivalent of a mini-rig a day starting Oct 1, by Dec 1 they would not have cleared day 1 orders and a 30GH ls delivered Dec 1 would be making less than 1.5 BTC per day. By Feb 1 they may have finished July's orders and the LS would be down to .7BTC a day.
If they had been completely on the ball, they'd have probably been shipping 5TH+ a day and by Dec 1 that LS would have been bringing in a piddly .4BTC per day. .067 BTC a day on a Jalapeno and dropping. AND THEY STILL WOULD NOT HAVE CAUGHT UP WITH ORDERS.
The cutomers would still be complaining CAUSE THEY SEE THEIR DREAMS OF MILLIONS OF BTC GOING UP IN SMOKE. No one wants to admit their dream was far more fantasy than reality. they don't want to hear it.
It's not BFL's fault for selling the golden geese laying the gold eggs... it's the fault of the tens of thousands of people ordering all those geese and crashing the gold market.
All the complaints I've seen on these forums have to do with BFL not delivering on their promises and very little to do with the actual ROI their machine make, they promised a set hashrate at a set efficiency at a set time, not ROI. Had BFL delivered exactly what they stated they would in the beginning, I think we'd be calling the customers dummies for buying a machine that wouldn't make back what they spent on it and lauding BFL as a stellar example of bitcoin businesses for following through on time and in specs for a new technology. If BFL had shipped the equivalent of a mini-rig a day starting Oct 1, by Dec 1 they would not have cleared day 1 orders and a 30GH ls delivered Dec 1 would be making less than 1.5 BTC per day. By Feb 1 they may have finished July's orders and the LS would be down to .7BTC a day.
If they had been completely on the ball, they'd have probably been shipping 5TH+ a day and by Dec 1 that LS would have been bringing in a piddly .4BTC per day. .067 BTC a day on a Jalapeno and dropping. AND THEY STILL WOULD NOT HAVE CAUGHT UP WITH ORDERS.
The cutomers would still be complaining CAUSE THEY SEE THEIR DREAMS OF MILLIONS OF BTC GOING UP IN SMOKE. No one wants to admit their dream was far more fantasy than reality. they don't want to hear it.
It's not BFL's fault for selling the golden geese laying the gold eggs... it's the fault of the tens of thousands of people ordering all those geese and crashing the gold market.
BFL customers will make less money with their machines now than if BFL delivered last year like planned regardless of who would ROI or not. BFL delaying has cost their customers money and the only way to not believe that is to believe that every added hash to the network since their originally stated launch date was added by BFL. If that is the case then you are too far gone and we have nothing to discuss obviously.
? Your logic escapes me.I will agree with you on 1 point, if BFL had shipped on time, their customers would be making more BTC per day back than they will in the present when they receive them.
I disgree that overall they would have MORE BTC at this point in time if BFL had shipped on time than they do have right now from having mined with alternative sources up until this point. We haven't seen the full effect of the orders placed with BFL yet, so you have no idea how little they actually would have made, while I have a pretty clear idea from my time/motion studies on the matter.
I never made any claims about how wise an investment in BFL gear would have been either way. Whether BFL machines ROI'd last year or this year is beside the point. Due to BFL's actions, their customers lost money (beyond what they may have already lost by ordering with BFL in the first place rather than investing with competitors or just buying BTC), whether that means they will lose more on their investment vs losing less last year or determining successful ROI or not is beyond the scope of my previous comments about your assertion. BFL having dumb customers doesn't somehow negate the fact that BFL didn't deliver on promises and cost their customers money. I'm stating a simple fact, BFL didn't do what they said they would do and it cost their customers money. We know this happened and people don't like it evidenced by all the BFL hate, there isn't much for you to refute here though I don't doubt you'll try.I disgree that overall they would have MORE BTC at this point in time if BFL had shipped on time than they do have right now from having mined with alternative sources up until this point. We haven't seen the full effect of the orders placed with BFL yet, so you have no idea how little they actually would have made, while I have a pretty clear idea from my time/motion studies on the matter.
Most of the hate posts I read refer to 'potential profits lost'. That term alone tells me people think that they would have more money rolling in if BFL had shipped on time. I could post 3 pages of calculations showing this to be untrue, but you cannot change the minds of people unwilling to listen.
Now, you say these customers lost money. What money did they lose? Their investment? It technically doubled (or more on Mini's) if you take into account the price increase and the fact they will get it eventually. Mining profits? Maybe for the day 1 orderers, otherwise doubtful unless they did little to no mining after ordering. The subsequent rise in the price of BTC? Speculation. In hindsight everyone will tell you THEY would have held every last BTC and sold at $250 and thus they got screwed royally by not having it. The reality is many would have found something else to spend their BTC on. Whether that would have been a competitor's equipment or something else is also truly unknown. Maybe having spent it on BFL equipment kept some people from losing it all trying to score big on alt-coins or spending it all on a party and the only thing they'd have to show for it is a massive hangover.
So, I can agree that BFL did not live up to expectations, that *is* a fact. But to be completely honest, I cannot say with any certainty that this did or did not cost the customers money. There is certainly a perception by many that money was lost, but unfortunately, we can never prove if that would have been the reality.
The main reason customers ARE complaining so much NOW is because BFL IS SHIPPING and they can watch as the difficulty climbs into the clouds. The very same customers would have been complaining just as loudly back in December if BFL HAD shipped on time, for the very same reasons. I started mining in April and with less than 1GH of GPUs have mined over 2 BTC alone not counting the BTC I got from mining other coins and converting into BTC. If I had been mining back in Oct through May I would have probably had 8-10 more to add to that total. The people who ordered big from BFL likely have quite a bit more hashing power than I do. Except for the very first people to order, kinda the same as now, I bet a lot of people made more from their existing equipment than they would have from the BFL products:
If BFL had shipped the equivalent of a mini-rig a day starting Oct 1, by Dec 1 they would not have cleared day 1 orders and a 30GH ls delivered Dec 1 would be making less than 1.5 BTC per day. By Feb 1 they may have finished July's orders and the LS would be down to .7BTC a day.
If they had been completely on the ball, they'd have probably been shipping 5TH+ a day and by Dec 1 that LS would have been bringing in a piddly .4BTC per day. .067 BTC a day on a Jalapeno and dropping. AND THEY STILL WOULD NOT HAVE CAUGHT UP WITH ORDERS.
The cutomers would still be complaining CAUSE THEY SEE THEIR DREAMS OF MILLIONS OF BTC GOING UP IN SMOKE. No one wants to admit their dream was far more fantasy than reality. they don't want to hear it.
It's not BFL's fault for selling the golden geese laying the gold eggs... it's the fault of the tens of thousands of people ordering all those geese and crashing the gold market.
All the complaints I've seen on these forums have to do with BFL not delivering on their promises and very little to do with the actual ROI their machine make, they promised a set hashrate at a set efficiency at a set time, not ROI. Had BFL delivered exactly what they stated they would in the beginning, I think we'd be calling the customers dummies for buying a machine that wouldn't make back what they spent on it and lauding BFL as a stellar example of bitcoin businesses for following through on time and in specs for a new technology. If BFL had shipped the equivalent of a mini-rig a day starting Oct 1, by Dec 1 they would not have cleared day 1 orders and a 30GH ls delivered Dec 1 would be making less than 1.5 BTC per day. By Feb 1 they may have finished July's orders and the LS would be down to .7BTC a day.
If they had been completely on the ball, they'd have probably been shipping 5TH+ a day and by Dec 1 that LS would have been bringing in a piddly .4BTC per day. .067 BTC a day on a Jalapeno and dropping. AND THEY STILL WOULD NOT HAVE CAUGHT UP WITH ORDERS.
The cutomers would still be complaining CAUSE THEY SEE THEIR DREAMS OF MILLIONS OF BTC GOING UP IN SMOKE. No one wants to admit their dream was far more fantasy than reality. they don't want to hear it.
It's not BFL's fault for selling the golden geese laying the gold eggs... it's the fault of the tens of thousands of people ordering all those geese and crashing the gold market.
BFL customers will make less money with their machines now than if BFL delivered last year like planned regardless of who would ROI or not. BFL delaying has cost their customers money and the only way to not believe that is to believe that every added hash to the network since their originally stated launch date was added by BFL. If that is the case then you are too far gone and we have nothing to discuss obviously.
? Your logic escapes me.I will agree with you on 1 point, if BFL had shipped on time, their customers would be making more BTC per day back than they will in the present when they receive them.
I disgree that overall they would have MORE BTC at this point in time if BFL had shipped on time than they do have right now from having mined with alternative sources up until this point. We haven't seen the full effect of the orders placed with BFL yet, so you have no idea how little they actually would have made, while I have a pretty clear idea from my time/motion studies on the matter.
I never made any claims about how wise an investment in BFL gear would have been either way. Whether BFL machines ROI'd last year or this year is beside the point. Due to BFL's actions, their customers lost money (beyond what they may have already lost by ordering with BFL in the first place rather than investing with competitors or just buying BTC), whether that means they will lose more on their investment vs losing less last year or determining successful ROI or not is beyond the scope of my previous comments about your assertion. BFL having dumb customers doesn't somehow negate the fact that BFL didn't deliver on promises and cost their customers money. I'm stating a simple fact, BFL didn't do what they said they would do and it cost their customers money. We know this happened and people don't like it evidenced by all the BFL hate, there isn't much for you to refute here though I don't doubt you'll try. I disgree that overall they would have MORE BTC at this point in time if BFL had shipped on time than they do have right now from having mined with alternative sources up until this point. We haven't seen the full effect of the orders placed with BFL yet, so you have no idea how little they actually would have made, while I have a pretty clear idea from my time/motion studies on the matter.
So you'd prefer to pay ASICMiner $1,000,000 for less hashing power than a $30,000 1.5TH unit from BFL... Gotcha. Bend over, here it comes...
BFL is not able to build and ship 1.5TH units ordered right now for $30,000.If they were able to, people would buy them.
All BFL can do right now is sell promises that at some point in the future they might build one eventually and give it to you at some point.
If someone wants an ASIC right now, ASICMiner is the *only* place they can buy one in stock and get it in a few days.
Even with a monopoly on the market, ASICMiner has cut their prices several times. Still, they have profited handsomely from being the only place one can buy an ASIC mining device that is actually in stock.
Every other ASIC vendor involves ordering and waiting for weeks or months.
ASICMiner offered (IMO) overpriced gear. People paid the price. ASICMiner then delivered exactly what they offered immediately.
Many people (myself included) tried to warn people that there was no ROI to be had, but we were shouted down by the buyers, not the sellers.
ASICMiner then offered slightly less overpriced gear. People paid the price. ASICMiner then delivered exactly what they offered immediately.
They are doing it a third time. People are still buying. You can't blame the shovel makers for making shovels and selling to the millions who come to the gold rush and are desperate to buy a shovel. You have to educate the people and teach them why they should not covet shovels and goldpans.
As soon as another company can provide competition, the prices will adjust to more reasonable levels.
Plus, you seem to be very angry at the only ASIC company that actually delivers what they promise when they say they will. Why is that I wonder.
You are mistaking my feelings towards dispicable acts as feeling for a company that succeeded. When ASICMiner sold the blades for 50BTC, while expensive, there was a very reasonable expectation that the price could be recouped. I commented months ago that the person who sold their mini-rig preorder for 77K was the smart one in the bunch. Compared to the 50BTC for 13GH, 77K was a minor expense for 1.5TH.
BFL started shipping. In hand Jalapenos were placed up for auction and frantic bidders pushed prices to insane levels. I saw from $800 to $2,000. A lot of these auctions were started at $100 and it was up to the bidders to dictate the final price.
Enter the USBs. Almost the cost of a Jalapeno for 1/15th the hash rate. 'shareholders' only, and they turned around and listed STARTING bids at double what they paid for them. Call it what you want, but that my friend is the perfect example of insider trading. ASICMiner went from benevolent company paying dividends to investors to a good old boys club out to fuck the rest of the world. If ASICMiner had simply put them up for sale to EVERYONE at a fixed cost and the people lucky enough to get one reselling them like brand new PS3's on ebay would not have caused me grief. Luck of the draw I can respect. Insider trading to profit your shareholders is criminal.
period.
The main reason customers ARE complaining so much NOW is because BFL IS SHIPPING and they can watch as the difficulty climbs into the clouds. The very same customers would have been complaining just as loudly back in December if BFL HAD shipped on time, for the very same reasons. I started mining in April and with less than 1GH of GPUs have mined over 2 BTC alone not counting the BTC I got from mining other coins and converting into BTC. If I had been mining back in Oct through May I would have probably had 8-10 more to add to that total. The people who ordered big from BFL likely have quite a bit more hashing power than I do. Except for the very first people to order, kinda the same as now, I bet a lot of people made more from their existing equipment than they would have from the BFL products:
If BFL had shipped the equivalent of a mini-rig a day starting Oct 1, by Dec 1 they would not have cleared day 1 orders and a 30GH ls delivered Dec 1 would be making less than 1.5 BTC per day. By Feb 1 they may have finished July's orders and the LS would be down to .7BTC a day.
If they had been completely on the ball, they'd have probably been shipping 5TH+ a day and by Dec 1 that LS would have been bringing in a piddly .4BTC per day. .067 BTC a day on a Jalapeno and dropping. AND THEY STILL WOULD NOT HAVE CAUGHT UP WITH ORDERS.
The cutomers would still be complaining CAUSE THEY SEE THEIR DREAMS OF MILLIONS OF BTC GOING UP IN SMOKE. No one wants to admit their dream was far more fantasy than reality. they don't want to hear it.
It's not BFL's fault for selling the golden geese laying the gold eggs... it's the fault of the tens of thousands of people ordering all those geese and crashing the gold market.
All the complaints I've seen on these forums have to do with BFL not delivering on their promises and very little to do with the actual ROI their machine make, they promised a set hashrate at a set efficiency at a set time, not ROI. Had BFL delivered exactly what they stated they would in the beginning, I think we'd be calling the customers dummies for buying a machine that wouldn't make back what they spent on it and lauding BFL as a stellar example of bitcoin businesses for following through on time and in specs for a new technology. If BFL had shipped the equivalent of a mini-rig a day starting Oct 1, by Dec 1 they would not have cleared day 1 orders and a 30GH ls delivered Dec 1 would be making less than 1.5 BTC per day. By Feb 1 they may have finished July's orders and the LS would be down to .7BTC a day.
If they had been completely on the ball, they'd have probably been shipping 5TH+ a day and by Dec 1 that LS would have been bringing in a piddly .4BTC per day. .067 BTC a day on a Jalapeno and dropping. AND THEY STILL WOULD NOT HAVE CAUGHT UP WITH ORDERS.
The cutomers would still be complaining CAUSE THEY SEE THEIR DREAMS OF MILLIONS OF BTC GOING UP IN SMOKE. No one wants to admit their dream was far more fantasy than reality. they don't want to hear it.
It's not BFL's fault for selling the golden geese laying the gold eggs... it's the fault of the tens of thousands of people ordering all those geese and crashing the gold market.
BFL customers will make less money with their machines now than if BFL delivered last year like planned regardless of who would ROI or not. BFL delaying has cost their customers money and the only way to not believe that is to believe that every added hash to the network since their originally stated launch date was added by BFL. If that is the case then you are too far gone and we have nothing to discuss obviously.
? Your logic escapes me.I will agree with you on 1 point, if BFL had shipped on time, their customers would be making more BTC per day back than they will in the present when they receive them.
I disgree that overall they would have MORE BTC at this point in time if BFL had shipped on time than they do have right now from having mined with alternative sources up until this point. We haven't seen the full effect of the orders placed with BFL yet, so you have no idea how little they actually would have made, while I have a pretty clear idea from my time/motion studies on the matter.
So you'd prefer to pay ASICMiner $1,000,000 for less hashing power than a $30,000 1.5TH unit from BFL... Gotcha. Bend over, here it comes...
BFL is not able to build and ship 1.5TH units ordered right now for $30,000.If they were able to, people would buy them.
All BFL can do right now is sell promises that at some point in the future they might build one eventually and give it to you at some point.
If someone wants an ASIC right now, ASICMiner is the *only* place they can buy one in stock and get it in a few days.
Even with a monopoly on the market, ASICMiner has cut their prices several times. Still, they have profited handsomely from being the only place one can buy an ASIC mining device that is actually in stock.
Every other ASIC vendor involves ordering and waiting for weeks or months.
ASICMiner offered (IMO) overpriced gear. People paid the price. ASICMiner then delivered exactly what they offered immediately.
Many people (myself included) tried to warn people that there was no ROI to be had, but we were shouted down by the buyers, not the sellers.
ASICMiner then offered slightly less overpriced gear. People paid the price. ASICMiner then delivered exactly what they offered immediately.
They are doing it a third time. People are still buying. You can't blame the shovel makers for making shovels and selling to the millions who come to the gold rush and are desperate to buy a shovel. You have to educate the people and teach them why they should not covet shovels and goldpans.
As soon as another company can provide competition, the prices will adjust to more reasonable levels.
Plus, you seem to be very angry at the only ASIC company that actually delivers what they promise when they say they will. Why is that I wonder.
IMHO, blaming the company for the faults of the customers is wrong. BFL did what it said it would do, admittedly not in a good timeframe, but they have continued to work on it and have not ducked out with the cash. In one aspect BFL is like ASICMiner. When they unveiled their product there was sufficient hype that far more orders than could reasonably be processed were made. Unlike ASICMiner though, BFL stuck with their pricing and didn't set out to fleece the customer of every last dime.
The time component was as critical as everything else. BFL did not do "what it said it would do". Had BFL delivered on time and to spec they would have done what they said they would do regardless of ROI of their machines. They don't exist in a bubble and their delays cost their customers stress, time and money. They fucked their customers by claiming a ship date and hashrate efficiency they didn't deliver on, whether you like BFL or not those are the facts. Maybe some of those customers were idiots and thought they would ROI when they wouldn't have under any circumstances, however that has nothing to do with the complaints against BFL. Nobody is blaming the company for faults of the customer, they are blaming the company for faults of the company. I'm not trying to debate or argue against your opinion of the company. If you take what happened and still think BFL is stand up business then more power to you, but to claim the complaints are really the customers' faults and BFL did what it said they would do is just patently false. I'm not even attributing any malice or deception to BFL's actions here, whether or not BFL intentionally fucked their customers is immaterial to my point.
As for ASICMiner, personally I'd MUCH rather have a company price their products very high than make erroneous statements about what and when you'll get from them. Not that I'm trying to say great things about ASICMiner, just that BFL set the bar really low for comparisons.
The main reason customers ARE complaining so much NOW is because BFL IS SHIPPING and they can watch as the difficulty climbs into the clouds. The very same customers would have been complaining just as loudly back in December if BFL HAD shipped on time, for the very same reasons. I started mining in April and with less than 1GH of GPUs have mined over 2 BTC alone not counting the BTC I got from mining other coins and converting into BTC. If I had been mining back in Oct through May I would have probably had 8-10 more to add to that total. The people who ordered big from BFL likely have quite a bit more hashing power than I do. Except for the very first people to order, kinda the same as now, I bet a lot of people made more from their existing equipment than they would have from the BFL products:
If BFL had shipped the equivalent of a mini-rig a day starting Oct 1, by Dec 1 they would not have cleared day 1 orders and a 30GH ls delivered Dec 1 would be making less than 1.5 BTC per day. By Feb 1 they may have finished July's orders and the LS would be down to .7BTC a day.
If they had been completely on the ball, they'd have probably been shipping 5TH+ a day and by Dec 1 that LS would have been bringing in a piddly .4BTC per day. .067 BTC a day on a Jalapeno and dropping. AND THEY STILL WOULD NOT HAVE CAUGHT UP WITH ORDERS.
The cutomers would still be complaining CAUSE THEY SEE THEIR DREAMS OF MILLIONS OF BTC GOING UP IN SMOKE. No one wants to admit their dream was far more fantasy than reality. they don't want to hear it.
It's not BFL's fault for selling the golden geese laying the gold eggs... it's the fault of the tens of thousands of people ordering all those geese and crashing the gold market.
All the complaints I've seen on these forums have to do with BFL not delivering on their promises and very little to do with the actual ROI their machine make, they promised a set hashrate at a set efficiency at a set time, not ROI. Had BFL delivered exactly what they stated they would in the beginning, I think we'd be calling the customers dummies for buying a machine that wouldn't make back what they spent on it and lauding BFL as a stellar example of bitcoin businesses for following through on time and in specs for a new technology. If BFL had shipped the equivalent of a mini-rig a day starting Oct 1, by Dec 1 they would not have cleared day 1 orders and a 30GH ls delivered Dec 1 would be making less than 1.5 BTC per day. By Feb 1 they may have finished July's orders and the LS would be down to .7BTC a day.
If they had been completely on the ball, they'd have probably been shipping 5TH+ a day and by Dec 1 that LS would have been bringing in a piddly .4BTC per day. .067 BTC a day on a Jalapeno and dropping. AND THEY STILL WOULD NOT HAVE CAUGHT UP WITH ORDERS.
The cutomers would still be complaining CAUSE THEY SEE THEIR DREAMS OF MILLIONS OF BTC GOING UP IN SMOKE. No one wants to admit their dream was far more fantasy than reality. they don't want to hear it.
It's not BFL's fault for selling the golden geese laying the gold eggs... it's the fault of the tens of thousands of people ordering all those geese and crashing the gold market.
BFL customers will make less money with their machines now than if BFL delivered last year like planned regardless of who would ROI or not. BFL delaying has cost their customers money and the only way to not believe that is to believe that every added hash to the network since their originally stated launch date was added by BFL. If that is the case then you are too far gone and we have nothing to discuss obviously.
So you'd prefer to pay ASICMiner $1,000,000 for less hashing power than a $30,000 1.5TH unit from BFL... Gotcha. Bend over, here it comes...
BFL is not able to build and ship 1.5TH units ordered right now for $30,000.If they were able to, people would buy them.
All BFL can do right now is sell promises that at some point in the future they might build one eventually and give it to you at some point.
If someone wants an ASIC right now, ASICMiner is the *only* place they can buy one in stock and get it in a few days.
Even with a monopoly on the market, ASICMiner has cut their prices several times. Still, they have profited handsomely from being the only place one can buy an ASIC mining device that is actually in stock.
Every other ASIC vendor involves ordering and waiting for weeks or months.
So you'd prefer to pay ASICMiner $1,000,000 for less hashing power than a $30,000 1.5TH unit from BFL... Gotcha. Bend over, here it comes...
BFL is not able to build and ship 1.5TH units ordered right now for $30,000.If they were able to, people would buy them.
All BFL can do right now is sell promises that at some point in the future they might build one eventually and give it to you at some point.
If someone wants an ASIC right now, ASICMiner is the *only* place they can buy one in stock and get it in a few days.
Even with a monopoly on the market, ASICMiner has cut their prices several times. Still, they have profited handsomely from being the only place one can buy an ASIC mining device that is actually in stock.
Every other ASIC vendor involves ordering and waiting for weeks or months.
IMHO, blaming the company for the faults of the customers is wrong. BFL did what it said it would do, admittedly not in a good timeframe, but they have continued to work on it and have not ducked out with the cash. In one aspect BFL is like ASICMiner. When they unveiled their product there was sufficient hype that far more orders than could reasonably be processed were made. Unlike ASICMiner though, BFL stuck with their pricing and didn't set out to fleece the customer of every last dime.
The time component was as critical as everything else. BFL did not do "what it said it would do". Had BFL delivered on time and to spec they would have done what they said they would do regardless of ROI of their machines. They don't exist in a bubble and their delays cost their customers stress, time and money. They fucked their customers by claiming a ship date and hashrate efficiency they didn't deliver on, whether you like BFL or not those are the facts. Maybe some of those customers were idiots and thought they would ROI when they wouldn't have under any circumstances, however that has nothing to do with the complaints against BFL. Nobody is blaming the company for faults of the customer, they are blaming the company for faults of the company. I'm not trying to debate or argue against your opinion of the company. If you take what happened and still think BFL is stand up business then more power to you, but to claim the complaints are really the customers' faults and BFL did what it said they would do is just patently false. I'm not even attributing any malice or deception to BFL's actions here, whether or not BFL intentionally fucked their customers is immaterial to my point.
As for ASICMiner, personally I'd MUCH rather have a company price their products very high than make erroneous statements about what and when you'll get from them. Not that I'm trying to say great things about ASICMiner, just that BFL set the bar really low for comparisons.
The main reason customers ARE complaining so much NOW is because BFL IS SHIPPING and they can watch as the difficulty climbs into the clouds. The very same customers would have been complaining just as loudly back in December if BFL HAD shipped on time, for the very same reasons. I started mining in April and with less than 1GH of GPUs have mined over 2 BTC alone not counting the BTC I got from mining other coins and converting into BTC. If I had been mining back in Oct through May I would have probably had 8-10 more to add to that total. The people who ordered big from BFL likely have quite a bit more hashing power than I do. Except for the very first people to order, kinda the same as now, I bet a lot of people made more from their existing equipment than they would have from the BFL products:
If BFL had shipped the equivalent of a mini-rig a day starting Oct 1, by Dec 1 they would not have cleared day 1 orders and a 30GH ls delivered Dec 1 would be making less than 1.5 BTC per day. By Feb 1 they may have finished July's orders and the LS would be down to .7BTC a day.
If they had been completely on the ball, they'd have probably been shipping 5TH+ a day and by Dec 1 that LS would have been bringing in a piddly .4BTC per day. .067 BTC a day on a Jalapeno and dropping. AND THEY STILL WOULD NOT HAVE CAUGHT UP WITH ORDERS.
The cutomers would still be complaining CAUSE THEY SEE THEIR DREAMS OF MILLIONS OF BTC GOING UP IN SMOKE. No one wants to admit their dream was far more fantasy than reality. they don't want to hear it.
It's not BFL's fault for selling the golden geese laying the gold eggs... it's the fault of the tens of thousands of people ordering all those geese and crashing the gold market.
IMHO, blaming the company for the faults of the customers is wrong. BFL did what it said it would do, admittedly not in a good timeframe, but they have continued to work on it and have not ducked out with the cash. In one aspect BFL is like ASICMiner. When they unveiled their product there was sufficient hype that far more orders than could reasonably be processed were made. Unlike ASICMiner though, BFL stuck with their pricing and didn't set out to fleece the customer of every last dime.
The time component was as critical as everything else. BFL did not do "what it said it would do". Had BFL delivered on time and to spec they would have done what they said they would do regardless of ROI of their machines. They don't exist in a bubble and their delays cost their customers stress, time and money. They fucked their customers by claiming a ship date and hashrate efficiency they didn't deliver on, whether you like BFL or not those are the facts. Maybe some of those customers were idiots and thought they would ROI when they wouldn't have under any circumstances, however that has nothing to do with the complaints against BFL. Nobody is blaming the company for faults of the customer, they are blaming the company for faults of the company. I'm not trying to debate or argue against your opinion of the company. If you take what happened and still think BFL is stand up business then more power to you, but to claim the complaints are really the customers' faults and BFL did what it said they would do is just patently false. I'm not even attributing any malice or deception to BFL's actions here, whether or not BFL intentionally fucked their customers is immaterial to my point.
As for ASICMiner, personally I'd MUCH rather have a company price their products very high than make erroneous statements about what and when you'll get from them. Not that I'm trying to say great things about ASICMiner, just that BFL set the bar really low for comparisons.
@ k9
I am not necessarily talking about you when you sell stuff...but...this applies to many out there.
If people sell anything for the profit motive and they fuck their customers...they are taking more than just cash.
If a buyer is misinformed when they are buying a miner from you and they spend 5k and they expect that miner to produce 12k over it's useful life. If they don't know that it never will (barring a miracle) do what it is intended to do. They will face "knock on" effects in their life.
We won't ever know if they took those funds from their kids future or if they expect a quick return so they can feed their family. You aren't just taking 5k, you are taking a misinformed buyer and turning them into a train wreck.
--------------------
There are alot of people out there who sell stuff like a connman. They know they are pulling a conn even when it is perfectly legal. They say things that aren't true, they exaggerate, they distort, they keep silent when someone clearly doesn't know something, they omit information and hide it.
When people do the sale, they get a rude awakening when they later find out your product doesn't do what it was purchased for.
That has consequences in their life. Sure some are rich and they will just shrug it off and remind themselves that they shouldn't spend money they can't afford to lose. There are others who will spend money they don't have (from CC for example, many do that on this forum).
If your fortunes are built on the destruction of others and misdirection....then people really are no better than BFL. They may not think so, but they aren't any better.
----------------------
If your ultimate game is the pure profit, then you can justify anything.
People sell other people in America as part of the sex trade. (Yes, even in America) They justify it because it is profitable.
People ship Chinese immigrants in containers because each Chinese citizen pays 2k to get here illegally. They share an oceanic container for the next 30 days with 400+ other people crammed into one container. Justified because it was profitable. (most do not make it to shore alive, many die, they have to put up with the corpse next to them on the long voyage.)
Everything has a starting seed. People without that seed do things differently from other people. Even Connmen were once innocent. At some point they saw things in "a new perspective" and slowly grew to be who they are until they got caught.
Even though I don't always live "the motto" perfectly, people reading this text should always treat others as if "they are you". If you wouldn't screw yourself for profit, then you shouldn't do it to the buyer.
+1I am not necessarily talking about you when you sell stuff...but...this applies to many out there.
If people sell anything for the profit motive and they fuck their customers...they are taking more than just cash.
If a buyer is misinformed when they are buying a miner from you and they spend 5k and they expect that miner to produce 12k over it's useful life. If they don't know that it never will (barring a miracle) do what it is intended to do. They will face "knock on" effects in their life.
We won't ever know if they took those funds from their kids future or if they expect a quick return so they can feed their family. You aren't just taking 5k, you are taking a misinformed buyer and turning them into a train wreck.
--------------------
There are alot of people out there who sell stuff like a connman. They know they are pulling a conn even when it is perfectly legal. They say things that aren't true, they exaggerate, they distort, they keep silent when someone clearly doesn't know something, they omit information and hide it.
When people do the sale, they get a rude awakening when they later find out your product doesn't do what it was purchased for.
That has consequences in their life. Sure some are rich and they will just shrug it off and remind themselves that they shouldn't spend money they can't afford to lose. There are others who will spend money they don't have (from CC for example, many do that on this forum).
If your fortunes are built on the destruction of others and misdirection....then people really are no better than BFL. They may not think so, but they aren't any better.
----------------------
If your ultimate game is the pure profit, then you can justify anything.
People sell other people in America as part of the sex trade. (Yes, even in America) They justify it because it is profitable.
People ship Chinese immigrants in containers because each Chinese citizen pays 2k to get here illegally. They share an oceanic container for the next 30 days with 400+ other people crammed into one container. Justified because it was profitable. (most do not make it to shore alive, many die, they have to put up with the corpse next to them on the long voyage.)
Everything has a starting seed. People without that seed do things differently from other people. Even Connmen were once innocent. At some point they saw things in "a new perspective" and slowly grew to be who they are until they got caught.
Even though I don't always live "the motto" perfectly, people reading this text should always treat others as if "they are you". If you wouldn't screw yourself for profit, then you shouldn't do it to the buyer.
90% of people advertising sales of their pre-orders (one guy was even selling a Jun 5th preorder on Jun 10th AND after reviewing his past sales, had a shill bidder to bump prices over $400) were extolling how AT CURRENT DIFFICULTY you'd be making $XX per day! Never mind the fact that they barely started shipping anything and the order number I am offering you has 60,000 orders ahead of it.
I actually complained about him to ebay and all of his auctions got cancelled and he's no longer registered. Did I done good?
It has no value other than how much a person wants to own it. A public auction is a fair method to dispose of things.
Again, it's right there in your own writing.You said "dispose". What does that tell you about what your selling?
The definition I meant was:
a : to transfer to the control of another
Picaso paintings are auctioned, but nobody would consider them to be thrown away.
I had a laser printer that was large, loud, expensive to run and wanted nothing more to do with it. However, there was nothing wrong with it functionally. It 'lasered' and scanned and networked just fine, so to speak. Someone who needed a large laser printer/scanner for their office snatched it up for what I felt was more than it was worth. It was also for a lot less than professional printers can be has new. I don't think that was an immoral transaction, I just think someone else could get more value out of it than I could.
Your opinion is projected unto the object. You named annoyances and cost to operate. It otherwise operates as the buyer intends to make use of it.
From the way you are writing you sold it off at a deep discount. Keep in mind that miners are being sold at above their online retail price. People expect the miners to produce bitcoins.
In ebay ads with miners in them, there are two polarities in listing types:
1) Either absolutely nothing is said about profitability or anything specific to that end. They just post they have it and end of story.
2) They talk about it's various features and how it is a money printing machine. But usually fail to say how much it is expected to print.
I was saying it is possible to construct a fair auction of mining equipment on ebay, not that all auctions on ebay are fair.
Perfectly describing an object in hand as to it's capabilities and attributes ought to be enough. Misleading statements and marketing is more selling and less auctioning. Also, the ASIC mining market is batshit insane right now. I consider the GPU secondary market on ebay to be in much better shape as far as morals go.
Sorry to interrupt the current conversation, but breaking news: BFL is now honoring all refunds for all those who ask via bitcoins: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bf-labs-inc-officially-reinstated-their-once-ended-refund-policy-via-bitcoin-279173
@ k9
I am not necessarily talking about you when you sell stuff...but...this applies to many out there.
If people sell anything for the profit motive and they fuck their customers...they are taking more than just cash.
If a buyer is misinformed when they are buying a miner from you and they spend 5k and they expect that miner to produce 12k over it's useful life. If they don't know that it never will (barring a miracle) do what it is intended to do. They will face "knock on" effects in their life.
We won't ever know if they took those funds from their kids future or if they expect a quick return so they can feed their family. You aren't just taking 5k, you are taking a misinformed buyer and turning them into a train wreck.
--------------------
There are alot of people out there who sell stuff like a connman. They know they are pulling a conn even when it is perfectly legal. They say things that aren't true, they exaggerate, they distort, they keep silent when someone clearly doesn't know something, they omit information and hide it.
When people do the sale, they get a rude awakening when they later find out your product doesn't do what it was purchased for.
That has consequences in their life. Sure some are rich and they will just shrug it off and remind themselves that they shouldn't spend money they can't afford to lose. There are others who will spend money they don't have (from CC for example, many do that on this forum).
If your fortunes are built on the destruction of others and misdirection....then people really are no better than BFL. They may not think so, but they aren't any better.
----------------------
If your ultimate game is the pure profit, then you can justify anything.
People sell other people in America as part of the sex trade. (Yes, even in America) They justify it because it is profitable.
People ship Chinese immigrants in containers because each Chinese citizen pays 2k to get here illegally. They share an oceanic container for the next 30 days with 400+ other people crammed into one container. Justified because it was profitable. (most do not make it to shore alive, many die, they have to put up with the corpse next to them on the long voyage.)
Everything has a starting seed. People without that seed do things differently from other people. Even Connmen were once innocent. At some point they saw things in "a new perspective" and slowly grew to be who they are until they got caught.
Even though I don't always live "the motto" perfectly, people reading this text should always treat others as if "they are you". If you wouldn't screw yourself for profit, then you shouldn't do it to the buyer.
I am not necessarily talking about you when you sell stuff...but...this applies to many out there.
If people sell anything for the profit motive and they fuck their customers...they are taking more than just cash.
If a buyer is misinformed when they are buying a miner from you and they spend 5k and they expect that miner to produce 12k over it's useful life. If they don't know that it never will (barring a miracle) do what it is intended to do. They will face "knock on" effects in their life.
We won't ever know if they took those funds from their kids future or if they expect a quick return so they can feed their family. You aren't just taking 5k, you are taking a misinformed buyer and turning them into a train wreck.
--------------------
There are alot of people out there who sell stuff like a connman. They know they are pulling a conn even when it is perfectly legal. They say things that aren't true, they exaggerate, they distort, they keep silent when someone clearly doesn't know something, they omit information and hide it.
When people do the sale, they get a rude awakening when they later find out your product doesn't do what it was purchased for.
That has consequences in their life. Sure some are rich and they will just shrug it off and remind themselves that they shouldn't spend money they can't afford to lose. There are others who will spend money they don't have (from CC for example, many do that on this forum).
If your fortunes are built on the destruction of others and misdirection....then people really are no better than BFL. They may not think so, but they aren't any better.
----------------------
If your ultimate game is the pure profit, then you can justify anything.
People sell other people in America as part of the sex trade. (Yes, even in America) They justify it because it is profitable.
People ship Chinese immigrants in containers because each Chinese citizen pays 2k to get here illegally. They share an oceanic container for the next 30 days with 400+ other people crammed into one container. Justified because it was profitable. (most do not make it to shore alive, many die, they have to put up with the corpse next to them on the long voyage.)
Everything has a starting seed. People without that seed do things differently from other people. Even Connmen were once innocent. At some point they saw things in "a new perspective" and slowly grew to be who they are until they got caught.
Even though I don't always live "the motto" perfectly, people reading this text should always treat others as if "they are you". If you wouldn't screw yourself for profit, then you shouldn't do it to the buyer.
@PuertoLibre: Auctioning something on Ebay when you are done with it is not immoral.
A beanie baby is a beanie baby. Unless it is damaged or not as described, it is conforming.
Someone who buys a miner with a very obvious expectation (and is advertised as such) of making bitcoins should know what they are getting themselves into and why you are selling it.
If you are offloading then you know it is a lemon. If the other person buying it is expecting profit equal to or superior to the price they paid, then they do not know you are selling them a lemon.
This is the type of stuff you learn as a kid. How not to screw others because it has ongoing consequences. In other words conducting a sale on good terms and with good faith. That seems to be a foreign concept to many dealing in Bitcoin...it appears.
It has no value other than how much a person wants to own it. A public auction is a fair method to dispose of things.
Again, it's right there in your own writing.You said "dispose". What does that tell you about what your selling?
I had a laser printer that was large, loud, expensive to run and wanted nothing more to do with it. However, there was nothing wrong with it functionally. It 'lasered' and scanned and networked just fine, so to speak. Someone who needed a large laser printer/scanner for their office snatched it up for what I felt was more than it was worth. It was also for a lot less than professional printers can be has new. I don't think that was an immoral transaction, I just think someone else could get more value out of it than I could.
Your opinion is projected unto the object. You named annoyances and cost to operate. It otherwise operates as the buyer intends to make use of it.
From the way you are writing you sold it off at a deep discount. Keep in mind that miners are being sold at above their online retail price. People expect the miners to produce bitcoins.
In ebay ads with miners in them, there are two polarities in listing types:
1) Either absolutely nothing is said about profitability or anything specific to that end. They just post they have it and end of story.
2) They talk about it's various features and how it is a money printing machine. But usually fail to say how much it is expected to print.
You know why people go to ebay to discharge their miners. Because they couldn't otherwise get a "too high a price" for it, if they tried to sell it among us "who know better" on BitCoinTalk.
They go to the corner of the internet where they barely have enough sense to rub two brain cells together.
The flipping of pre-orders is low. But bitcointalk.org is not the entire market anymore. As long as the auction starts at a fair price and full disclosure is made as to the state of the product, there is nothing inherently immoral about using Ebay. That is to say, it is possible to make a moral transaction of mining equipment using ebay.They go to the corner of the internet where they barely have enough sense to rub two brain cells together.
People often seem to sell them but they don't do what they buyer has intended. Some are so disgraceful that they even say they will delay sending it for weeks after the miner has been bought because they are "busy mining with it". LMFAO.
Creating a marketing scheme to paint a rosy picture of a bleak scenario in order to move product at inflated prices is immoral.
"Passively" Auctioning something in the hopes that it will go for an absurd and non-useful price to the other person is immoral. (my standard may not be yours)Whatever the reason, the sellers and distributors knew what they were doing.
They even defend their practices vehemently to this day. Shielding themselves under many pretenses that "the impossible" or a "miracle" might happen for their customers to get a useful intended purpose out of their resold miner....at too high a price.
Most of the blades were auctioned here. So I consider that selling into an informed (if not rational) market.They even defend their practices vehemently to this day. Shielding themselves under many pretenses that "the impossible" or a "miracle" might happen for their customers to get a useful intended purpose out of their resold miner....at too high a price.
There is a caveat with the USB miners. Selling one or two as a novelty item is fine. Like numismatic coins that contain a little gold, they are a terrible investment, but are shiny and pretty. I bought a gold plated buffalo coin for far more than it was worth, because my daughter wanted one. Also, the USB sticks are a reasonable way to democratize the bitcoin network. Selling them at 2BTC was ludicrous, but I could see $40 or so being reasonable.
People made a small fortune from reselling them at ludicrous prices.Resellers who were stuck with merchandise when the price was suddenly lowered were throughly looking for "a fast moving idiot" to sell it to at a high enough price to buy the new stock at the lower price point.
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